So, having lurked the ClassicWow subreddit for a lot of time and watching a lot of videos and stuff about classic, you come to think that Ret Paladins and Druids are almost worthless classes. Me myself thought the same way and didn't even consider playing those two.
Some days ago tho, I decided to join RetroWow to test which class I liked better and what would I main (it's hunter!) and I ended up discovering that nor ret pallys or druids are useless. Sure, they may be a bit worse, especially retris but it's not like they are npcs. After getting my ass destroyed by a few retri and boomies I can say that atleast in PvP, I don't feel like there's a class that is above all or that there are classes that are completely useless, as those posts and videos make out to be.
My only conclusion to get out of this is to just main whatever the fuck you want and don't give a shit about what the videos say.
Yes! That's exactly it. Player will not care about effectiveness of any class if he simply doesnt like it. After 20-30 levels he will just reroll to what he actually likes.
So, as Oderlods said, do not pick your class by its effectiveness in pve/pvp. Pick what you like to play/love to main/have strong feeling about/enjoy the lore. You will be far better with the class you like to play. :)
Yes! That's exactly it. Player will not care about effectiveness of any class if he simply doesnt like it. After 20-30 levels he will just reroll to what he actually likes.
So, as Oderlods said, do not pick your class by its effectiveness in pve/pvp. Pick what you like to play/love to main/have strong feeling about/enjoy the lore. You will be far better with the class you like to play. :)
Very well put... I see so many posts of people wanting to roll a pala or a druid but being afraid they will be forced to heal. Unless you are in a min/max guild I don't think anyone will give a shit about that and if you PvP just flat out don't worry about that. Every class will be competitive. Sure, there will be some classes that will stand out in certain situations but I'm sure every class has that:)
In the end, Vanilla is not about minmaxing.
I am pretty sure we will be seeing a fair amount of minmaxers who choose their class purely based on its late-game potential; this a trend that has been around in retail for quite a few expansions now, with people switching mains even after major patches just so they are playing the #1 dps/heaer/tank class for that respective content patch.
However, I also think that some people who opt to go for that approach are going to regret doing so...mostly because leveling in Classic takes quite a bit of time and patience, ultimately requiring a stronger personal commitment to their first character as their is now easy way of pushing themselves or getting boosted.
In the end, Vanilla is not about minmaxing.
I might want to add to that:
..., Vanilla is not a race, it's a marathon.
And playing a class that is only going to get good and fun to play past T2 is not something I would advice anyone to do.
You might call it a trend but minmaxing mentality was always here once you got familiar with a game. Setting new goals and beating higher difficulties is a common process of evolution. For those who seek to minmax and tryhard I would suggest a different game as it would imo bring them more joy then going through the same game over and over with faster speedruns etc. Classic wow is a project brought back for a different reason then just maximizing our raiding/pvp performance.
You might call it a trend but minmaxing mentality was always here once you got familiar with a game. Setting new goals and beating higher difficulties is a common process of evolution. For those who seek to minmax and tryhard I would suggest a different game as it would imo bring them more joy then going through the same game over and over with faster speedruns etc. Classic wow is a project brought back for a different reason then just maximizing our raiding/pvp performance.
I agree, it was always there to some degree but I feel like it has increased lately. Nowadays the most popular games are all about competition and multiplayer pvp. Of course there are storylines and PvE games but even some of them lead to minmaxing to achieve the best of the best that is possible.
That's what has me worried. When I was 12 or whatever playing Wotlk I didn't give two shits about minmaxing, but today when I played retail I wanted to have the best possible items and the best possible DPS.
I'm excited to start in classic without any guides or looking up race/class combinations, just enjoying the game. You can obviously do this in retail too but the feeling is different, if you want to get into M+ and shit and your class is bottom tier you will have a very hard time getting into groups.
if you want to get into M+ and shit and your class is bottom tier you will have a very hard time getting into groups.
true, and sad at the same time.
luckily there is no hc/m+ crap in Classic!;) and every class has its use.
I am actually starting to hate the word 'min-max'.
It has such a negative connotations and I think that people apply it to the wrong scenarios these days.
First of all, what is wrong with wanting to be good at the game. Sure, to agree with Oderlods, there is very little difference between classes and races but people should still be able to make informed decisions and feel free to try to play to their very best.
Any time you see someone talking about efficiency or extra performance on the classic subreddit for example, the post is either downvoted into oblivion or the OP gets abuse for being an evil 'min-maxer'. So fucking what? Let people play how they want to play you know...
There isn't much of a difference between top and bottom classes, it's true. Even base stat differences for different combinations, which I know intimately now having built a javascript tool around them, make for very small differences in performance. THAT SAID, I still think people shouldn't be demonised for wanting to exploit those small advantages where they do exist.
I agree with that you should play whatever and however you want if that gives you joy.
I don’t think anyone needs to worry about defending their race or spec as enjoyment come release. A lot of newcomers won’t look before they leap and there will be more human and elf priests than dwarf just as in vanilla.
High end dedicated gamers will have their own guilds and casuals in another. It seems like a lot of “min-maxing” because that’s often who loves the game enough to talk about it ages before it comes out.
I myself am going to play an optimal spec and race but it isn’t a sacrifice to do so. I enjoy just about everything about the character and am happy to do so. And I’m glad not everyone will be playing it, but not because I want to lord it over anyone: just because I enjoy seeing a wide variety in the player base. Wouldn’t it be sad if there were no dwarf priests same as if there were no night elf priests? I know it would be strange to me.
I agree with you teebling, everyone can enjoy the game as they please. I just fear that everyone will have this "minmax" mentality, kinda like in retail now. With no achivs there won't be shit like that hopefully lol
That's why we need new MMOs :D
I would like to add a bit of realism to this discussion with the best of intentions, feel free to disagree.
I decided to join RetroWow
A server on patch 1.12 which gives you an instant level 60 character with dungeon set 1 and all the blue dungeon items available (some of which are BiS over many raid tiers) where raids are tuned to be like 5-man dungeons. I don't want to sound mean but that's really not a valid point of view.
I just fear that everyone will have this "minmax" mentality, kinda like in retail now.
I don't think most people understand what min/maxing actually is or what it actually looks like. The way I see it, there is absolutely no difference between
* threads where people pat each other on the back that ret paladins can be relevant because Esfand says so or that oomkins can do well for 10 seconds before they run out of mana and that's why you can totally clear all the content up to Naxx.
* threads where people pat each other on the back that the .5% improvement in simulated DPS they got from some ancient Nost forum post is totally going to make a difference while they totally clear all content up to Naxx
Asking you to play your best raiding spec is not min/maxing. Asking you to play your best raiding spec, bring the best consumables every raid, farm enough gold to buy the best epics on the AH, to have all your gear enchanted, etc etc is min/maxing.
You guys don't really have a problem with min/maxing. Since when have people on the internet stopped you from having fun and playing what you want in that game? The real problem you guys have is with being included in raids and that's because you're approaching it from a very skewed angle.
-continuing-
You are free to play whatever you want and have fun the way you see fit, but when you're considering joining a raid you have to consider that there's 39 other people working for the same goal.
Raiding isn't always fun. A lot of times it's frustrating, gold-consuming, boring and downright depressing. The ups go as high as the lowest lows, this game is not a theme park, not always. Yes, we like walking through the barrens for hours but that's because there's a quest we need to do somewhere, a reward at the end of it, some progression we're after. I love doing dungeons as much as the next fellow, but when I'm doing UBRS for the 10th time and I just got my Reed, I'm only finishing the dungeon as a sign of respect for the others not because I actually have any reason to waste another hour there.
So with that being said, most raiders understand that they will have to put up with things they don't want. Warlocks will farm shards before the raid, mages will spam food/water to trade with the whole raid for 10 minutes straight, warriors pay big repair bills and have to know every pull, healers have to accept not being able to farm much in their raiding spec. Raid Leaders, Class Leads and Officers usually put in a lot of work to prepare the raids with little to no benefit involved - other than a guaranteed raid spot which they likely could've earned on their own.
We all accept a certain spec and often times boring rotation for the benefit of the group as a whole, not because we're so terribly excited about spamming one button rotations but because we know that's the key to our victory as a group. If everyone started thinking otherwise, we wouldn't even have a raid.
Of course we can clear all the content on the way to Naxx with an oomkin in the group. But just because we can theoretically do it doesn't mean we should want to do it, or will want to do it. Letting you in without a good argument as to why it benefits the raid as a whole could have dire consequences on the entire raid and I'll explain why.
-continuing-