1. Authority.
It's a given that people will have to do certain things they don't like in order to raid. because when things go wrong, people will look for others to blame and they will look at the weakest link in the group - even if it's not their fault at all - and then, next to the niche and underpeforming specs will be the Raid Leader who allowed this to happen in the first place and, in their eyes, keeps allowing this to happen by bringing niche specs around. From then onwards, it's just a matter of time until drama erupts and the whole raid team's stability is in danger. People will only respect the Raid Leader's authority and decisions so long they make sense and are successful towards accomplishing objectives. If something goes bad and someone brings an objective argument as to why it's because of the odd one in the group, his persistence will be seen as being a sign of irrationality or worse - due to some ulterior motive.
2. Relationship among members of the raid group.
Bonding between raid members happens both during victory but also during times of struggle, which is why it is very important that the effort people put in is both proportional with the expected reward or try to make that effort be as homogenized as possible. Someone from the same class who is under-performing is often treated with respect by the better performing players because they tend to blame the lack of performance on:
* inferior gear and consumables
* skill and experience
* RNG
But these are all things which can be addressed in time. If they are are playing the same spec, abiding by the same rules and mindset, then they will be alright sharing loot together.
Someone who is playing a sub-optimal spec for "fun" is seen as someone who just doesn't care enough about the group as a whole. Others will look at you with disdain because you potential isn't limited by anything our group/raid/leadership can actually provide, but rather that they see you as being limited by your own arrogance and selfish interest.
3. It lowers the bar.
When you're hoping to clear 4-5 raids a week, you will need people to be on their top game so you can stack as many raids as you can in order to get as much loot as you need. By letting someone who's just there to have fun raid without any sort of reasonable justification, it sends a message to the other raiders that they needn't care that much about performance - and why should they? If Johnny can come in and do 150 DPS, why should I bother wasting 3-4 hours of my life to do 400 DPS when I could just do 350 DPS just fine.
People are naturally lazy, they will want the most rewards for the least effort and they will always travel the path of least resistance. If you show them that you can make it as a damage dealer in your raid team with 150 DPS, I guarantee you that others will follow in the mindset I just described. It's not fair to put them in a position where they feel like they're carrying so they need to stop caring so much because the Raid Leader has obviously stopped caring about the DPS and so forth.
So yes, do play whatever spec and race you feel is best but be aware that the decision to include you in any raid group is more than just numbers, there's a lot of psychology involved. WoW is more than just numbers. Some people will be fine carrying a bit, others won't. Some people will judge you for being selfish, others won't. Making sure everyone is around the same level of effort, involvement, skill, etc. is not just a technical requirement in order to accomplish certain tasks, it's also a matter of compatibility. You don't want to be in a raid with people who will judge you for what you chose to play, maybe they don't want to be in a raid with someone who isn't at least trying to be as useful as they can for the raid.
What I'm saying is that these things are real and there is nothing you or I can do to stop them. Even people who might say they're not judging you like that, might be lying. Be who you want to be but do not expect to be accepted everywhere, and don't think that the reason is just numerically prejudiced against your choice. Personally, I don't see how it's not fun to be useful to the raid. I'm thankful that every class has a use in this game in every activity out there.
Nymis I read your posts and I agree wholeheartedly with the essence of what you are saying. Ultimately players will be selected for raids based on the value they bring to the collective group. In other words they have to provide a value-added service.
That being said, a mature mindset within the leadership ranks would be one that understands how to strike a balance when selecting people. Understanding that there is an overlap in skills that classes bring and making sound judgements on raid comps requires the leadership to acknowledge that minmaxing on an individual level, not entirely on a raid composition level, is the key to attracting the best player base and ultimately achieving success in progression. There is enough of a tolerance or “grey area” between classes that allows for a diverse arrangement of viable raid comps.
Ending thought: Do play what you feel you would enjoy the most, whether that enjoyment is derived from play style or from the community demand aspect. But make no mistake that your choices will come with inherent pros and cons socially within the community. Consider them when making your choice.
Nymis All great points however, I feel that the difference between optimal spec and optimal race is huge.
For one thing, for 50g you can change your spec whenever you like. Asking for a spec to be in the guild makes sense. Having the right spec can be a big increase in performance.
However in the case of people asking for specific races, the most doable is to get all human fury warriors and sword rogues, but after that it becomes either silly because the increase in performance isn’t enough to turn down good players with high attendance, or the class combination is too scarce in the wild to guarantee homogeneity of a specific race.
There are a lot of good reasons to roll a race you prefer the look and feel of considering the time investment involved, but none at all for showing up specced full shadow when you’re supposed to be holy specced like the raid leader specified.
Might you get turned down as a human or gear priority is given to the dwarf? Yeah, it might happen. If the other player is considered more essential, they will be incentivized to stay. You just need to know this and accept it beforehand that you are getting what you want (race over utility). Some people don’t have to choose, and I’m glad because it’s an agonizing decision.
Linguine I agree, the race thing is pretty silly. I posted this comment in another thread, but I think it's relevant here as well.
I think there's a lot of leisure room between "min/maxing" and full random/yolo/casual/etc.
It's not just about the server first race or anything. Some things will fly, other things won't. If by min/max you mean that you expect to find a raid spot as a SP/oomkin/ench/etc. then yeah, you are likely not. This is partly due to the limitations of the game (debuff slots, spell resistance etc.) but also due to the attitude you're carrying. If everyone signing up for a raid team was a "special snowflake" who cared more about individual fun than what the whole raid was doing then we wouldn't get anywhere. Sometimes you have to suck it up and do things that you might not want to do for the good of the raid - that's why knowing your class ahead of time is important.
So to sum it up:
And in my opinion, if you're better than average (top 50%) you're eligible for just about any sort of content in this game. Race/faction will never significantly hinder you, but professions/gear/spec definitely will.
There is enough of a tolerance or “grey area” between classes that allows for a diverse arrangement of viable raid comps.
Yeah but like I said, it's one thing to raid knowing that some people are better than others at playing their spec because they just haven't practiced enough and another to raid knowing that little Timmy is doing half the damage everyone else is doing just because he likes to pew-pew instead of pow-pow.
And if the Raid Leader permits that, then either everyone must agree with it or there must be some grand-scheme of things motive in mind, otherwise he's biased and it doesn't look well on paper.
It's easy. In the endgame the players filter pretty much automatically. Casual players will be in casual minded guilds/playing solo and more hardcore players will be in hardcore guilds because they would not like to be in casual guild. There will be many more options (semi casual, semi hardcore, so on :D) in classic so there is no point to be scared somebody woudnt find his/her spot in classic. :)
I agree Nymis. Fair points all well made. Now give that wrist a rest. :wink:
As s1atan said, people will naturally fall into their 'place' over time. Not to pigeon hole people, but you're just better off in an environment that fits your own play style. If I'm a casual, I'm not going to expect to be carried along in a serious raiding guild, just as I wouldn't expect them to be ok with doing so.
Another point of view is that if you have limited time, and want to experience as much content as possible, you just want to be relatively effective in what you do. I'd rather prepare for a raid and have an easy time than wiping on an encounter numerous times that would be a cake walk if people would do at least some preparation. A few hours of preparation might save you many hours of wiping and drama.
Another point of view is that if you have limited time, and want to experience as much content as possible, you just want to be relatively effective in what you do. I'd rather prepare for a raid and have an easy time than wiping on an encounter numerous times that would be a cake walk if people would do at least some preparation. A few hours of preparation might save you many hours of wiping and drama.
Yes, I definitely believe that everyone should independently decide for what character he wants to play. It's up to everybody how they spend their time.
Also after some consideration I decided to roll Tauren hunter, instead of orc/troll, even when its subpar combo. I just love their lore, appearance, way of life and kodos. :)
Trolls also have, in my opinion, the best racial animal for mounts: Raptors.
Yes, I definitely believe that everyone should independently decide for what character he wants to play. It's up to everybody how they spend their time.
Also after some consideration I decided to roll Tauren hunter, instead of orc/troll, even when its subpar combo. I just love their lore, appearance, way of life and kodos. :)
I will probably roll Orc shaman, although Troll might be slightly better. Even in top guilds you see non optimal race/class combos because it often has next to no impact. And, to be honest, who hasn't equipped a slightly worse armor piece once just because it looked better ;^)
I agree. I've never been a fan of extreme min-maxing (unless you're trying for some very difficult goal). Hope everyone just plays how they want to play and doesn't feel pressured otherwise.
And, to be honest, who hasn't equipped a slightly worse armor piece once just because it looked better ;^)
Oof, you got me!!
Trolls also have, in my opinion, the best racial animal for mounts: Raptors.
but what about Taurens ? they can be their own mount!;)
well, not anymore, I guess...