snickerwicket if I'm not mistaken, for some classes PvP gear is partly BiS or very close to it. Especially the Epic PvP set.
I've experienced a different mindset on pservers. Nearly everyone agrees the game is TOO easy and desperately impose challenges on themselves to make it harder or spice things up a bit like Speedruns. I've seen everything from guilds bringing paladin tanks to raid or the heart pounding and intense warlock raid tanking. The difference between a Discord with a warrior tanking and a warlock tanking is night and day. Its super thrilling! The tryhard/hardcore guilds are actually the ones that do unconventional stuff.
I have not experienced this. I have experienced and extreme lack of tolerance on private. The min max culture is SUPER blatant from top to bottom. This has been my experience, this is often the experience that others relay and this is the experience that all the prominent streamers have seen as well. The reality is that for most private players, they have done the content to death... Their threshold for dealing with things that are suboptimal, wiping or facing ANY adversity, is INCREDIBLY low. What is more? The min/max culture that pushes for speedclears to "spice things up" are the LAST people who are interested in bringing classes that will slow down their times. Go look at raid parses. Very few guilds are running many rets. The odd guild has one, but it is not common and they arent bring many. I have played with many good players who min/max, I have never heard any of them advocate bringing garbage specs to raids to artificially inflate the challenge of a game that will be older than some of the players who play it. To be honest, the best players I know are always PvP oriented players who just burn through PvE content as a means to collect the gear they need for PvP. Most of these guys are taking PvE specs that they DESPISE to collect the gear they need so that they can play the game the way that they would prefer to at a later time. Try selling these guys on your suboptimal spec while they suffer through playing something min/maxed for months so that they can help a guild to collect gear to FINALLY play in PvP!
If the difference between a dead and alive boss is 1-2 people going non meta stuff there are bigger underlying issues.
The difference between a meme spec and a solid spec is often the difference between a raid invite and being benched in a hardcore guild.
What is the threshold for bringing a meme spec? Everyone min/maxes, you win. Everyone memes, you lose. You cant take 40 memes and down content. So how many do you take? Who gets to go meme? Who gets to take a PvP oriented build? You start making exceptions that are not in favor of progression and you slowly accumulate people who are less progression focused and you discourage your players who are progression focused. This slowly pushes away your best players or reduces their motivation to min/max. I was actually in this EXACT circumstance in a guild within the past few months. The guild sold itself as a hardcore experience. Then we show up for MC 5 of the leaders are memes, 1 is a shadow priest, 1 is a feral (im pro feral by the way), 1 is a melee hunter (without nightfall), 2 are ret... The guild began to disintegrate. Was the content too challenging? NO! Of course not... But that wasn't the issue. The issue was that the rest of us were carrying dead weight and then sharing the spoils of our effort. How can you lead a guild and set standards while opting to reduce your own throughput? This ALWAYS causes a massive conflict. This was only with 5 memes!
Remove all of the aesthetics from the game and it leaves you with a board full of numbers. Your raid is a number VS the boss number. If your throughput and value overwhelms that of the scripted encounter, you win. The encounter does not change. It is predictable and you can overcome the number with proper preparation. Part of preparing is choosing the spec that will increase your teams odds of winning. Choosing to lower your guilds number for self-interested reasons, will never fly with your entire guild. The reality here is that it is far easier to set expectations high and make few exceptions. This is the fairest way to run a guild that will down content without discouraging your top players. If you want to go meme, you better have a well constructed case for how you intend to provide value to the team, because a raid is a team after all. Perhaps this is a simple concept for me because I grew up playing a lot of sports so I find myself more team oriented? I just find a lot of people who opt to play these specs do it for selfish reasons, whether that is subconscious or not, I am not sure.
Dont get me wrong, there is a place for EVERYONE. But dont get this twisted, if you are a meme or a suboptimal class, you will likely find yourself in a casual guild doing casual things. Lets not paint a pretend picture here. This will be the best place for you because you are casual. I dont mean this in a derogatory way, these are two entirely different crowds of people. My issue is not with meme builds... I hate when players who play meme builds start spreading false propaganda. I think this is disingenuous to new players and sets up a lot of false expectations. This is super harmful for the community both on the forum and come Classic.
Advertising to the semi-casuals who frequent this forum that they can be whatever they want is misleading. Approval to play these specs would normally be happening on a guild forum for a player who has already proven themselves.
This is just too true. For you new guys, please hear both sides of the argument but understand that playing as a suboptimal spec will be an uphill battle. If you are up for the challenge, you are likely the right person for the job. If you read our posts and find yourself discouraged, this is the most gentle form of persuasion you will EVER receive in opposition to your spec... When you dip your toes into a game full of players with their own goals and aspirations and then begin stifling their progress, you will be met with far more volatile reactions.
Imagine being the meme who is doing AWFUL DPS in a guild that just wiped for the third week on a boss... The wipe happens. The damage gets posted and instead of taking accountability for your own short comings you say "If the difference between a dead and alive boss is 1-2 people going non meta stuff there are bigger underlying issues. " How do you think your team will respond? Perhaps there are bigger issues, but your issue is the easiest to fix. Your issue is the easiest to identify. Your number is low. You are a weak link. Unfortunately, you will find yourself replaced and rightfully so. (Hardcore mindset). In contrast a casual guild would shrug their shoulders and meetup for a pint at Goldshire in celebration of the bosses they did down! Different communities, different mindsets. Have realistic goals and find a community that suits you.
People dictating one way or another what someone should play is bullshit. Provide advice on playstyle, on viability and whether it is optimal. Don't try to force players to conform to the masses. If every raid composition and players spec are all exactly the same wearing the same BiS gear, this is going to be a very dull game. I hate the attitude of people having to do exactly as 'Guide X' or they are sub-optimal, that's crap. Don't make 5million clones, or everyone will get bored and quit.
Read. Make your own decisions, do your own theorycraft, try new things out, or follow an optimal guide for the simple minded. Whatever makes you happy makes you happy. If you want to cruise through 14 year old content following someone else's rules, that's your prerogative, but don't shit on people who don't enjoy the game the same way you do. Each to their own. Play the game, you will have fun your way and keep the judging bullshit to social media.
Well put.
snickerwicket
Well I think you wont have any pvp gear in phase 1 anyways.
snickerwicket Well I think you wont have any pvp gear in phase 1 anyways.
People dictating one way or another what someone should play is bullshit. Provide advice on playstyle, on viability and whether it is optimal. Don't try to force players to conform to the masses. If every raid composition and players spec are all exactly the same wearing the same BiS gear, this is going to be a very dull game. I hate the attitude of people having to do exactly as 'Guide X' or they are sub-optimal, that's crap. Don't make 5million clones, or everyone will get bored and quit.
Read. Make your own decisions, do your own theorycraft, try new things out, or follow an optimal guide for the simple minded. Whatever makes you happy makes you happy. If you want to cruise through 14 year old content following someone else's rules, that's your prerogative, but don't shit on people who don't enjoy the game the same way you do. Each to their own. Play the game, you will have fun your way and keep the judging bullshit to social media.
Well put.
No. This is hypocritical.
says: Play the game, you will have fun your way and keep the judging bullshit to social media.
also judges min/maxing by saying: If every raid composition and players spec are all exactly the same wearing the same BiS gear, this is going to be a very dull game. I hate the attitude of people having to do exactly as 'Guide X' or they are sub-optimal, that's crap. Don't make 5million clones, or everyone will get bored and quit.
He hates min/maxing. He hates that min/maxers push their mindset on others but he is doing exactly that with his post. He then says that no one should judge eachother. His post made no sense. You don't get to play both sides of the fence. Either say your opposition to min maxing by judging that community and the impact they have on everyone else (which is massive). Or simply say that both communities should coexist and withhold your own judgement from the conversation and remain impartial.
People dictating one way or another what someone should play is bullshit. Provide advice on playstyle, on viability and whether it is optimal. Don't try to force players to conform to the masses. If every raid composition and players spec are all exactly the same wearing the same BiS gear, this is going to be a very dull game. I hate the attitude of people having to do exactly as 'Guide X' or they are sub-optimal, that's crap. Don't make 5million clones, or everyone will get bored and quit.
Read. Make your own decisions, do your own theorycraft, try new things out, or follow an optimal guide for the simple minded. Whatever makes you happy makes you happy. If you want to cruise through 14 year old content following someone else's rules, that's your prerogative, but don't shit on people who don't enjoy the game the same way you do. Each to their own. Play the game, you will have fun your way and keep the judging bullshit to social media.
Well put.
No. This is hypocritical.
says: Play the game, you will have fun your way and keep the judging bullshit to social media.
also judges min/maxing by saying: If every raid composition and players spec are all exactly the same wearing the same BiS gear, this is going to be a very dull game. I hate the attitude of people having to do exactly as 'Guide X' or they are sub-optimal, that's crap. Don't make 5million clones, or everyone will get bored and quit.
He hates min/maxing. He hates that min/maxers push their mindset on others but he is doing exactly that with his post. He then says that no one should judge eachother. His post made no sense. You don't get to play both sides of the fence. Either say your opposition to min maxing by judging that community and the impact they have on everyone else (which is massive). Or simply say that both communities should coexist and withhold your own judgement from the conversation and remain impartial.
I think you misunderstood what Selexin was trying to say.
I think you misunderstood what Selexin was trying to say.
It reads pretty clear.
Stfuppercut People dictating one way or another what someone should play is bullshit. Provide advice on playstyle, on viability and whether it is optimal. Don't try to force players to conform to the masses. If every raid composition and players spec are all exactly the same wearing the same BiS gear, this is going to be a very dull game. I hate the attitude of people having to do exactly as 'Guide X' or they are sub-optimal, that's crap. Don't make 5million clones, or everyone will get bored and quit.
Read. Make your own decisions, do your own theorycraft, try new things out, or follow an optimal guide for the simple minded. Whatever makes you happy makes you happy. If you want to cruise through 14 year old content following someone else's rules, that's your prerogative, but don't shit on people who don't enjoy the game the same way you do. Each to their own.
Except the very last sentence which I erased, I dont feel like there is anything controversial.
While I know that these were Selexins comments, you have reposted them as your own so I will quote them as they were posted.
If every raid composition and players spec are all exactly the same wearing the same BiS gear, this is going to be a very dull game.
For You and Selexin. Not for min/maxers. This is the difference. A min/maxer wants to play with others who min/max. It is judgemental to say that this is dull because that is only acknowledging YOUR perspective of the game. This is a judgemental stance.
I hate the attitude of people having to do exactly as 'Guide X' or they are sub-optimal, that's crap. Don't make 5million clones, or everyone will get bored and quit.
This is quite literally the foundation of a min/max guild. These are the parameters THEY use for recruitment and play. This may be crap for you, but this is fun for them. Again, you are judging THEIR form of fun.
Making these comments and then saying "Play the game, you will have fun your way and keep the judging bullshit to social media." is hypocritical in every sense of the term.
Stfuppercut We are not judging the minmaxers for doing their thing, We are judging those who force us to play in a certain way just because they do. We say that it would be dull if we all were to play according to the players who think that way. We are not against anyones playstyle and we re not judging them for that, on the contrary rly.
@Stfuppercut We are not judging the minmaxers for doing their thing, We are judging those who force us to play in a certain way just because they do. We say that it would be dull if we all were to play according to the players who think that way. We are not against anyones playstyle and we re not judging them for that, on the contrary rly.
You will be expected to conform to whatever community you actively participate in. If you join a random group of players for a dungeon, and you are the weak link, you will be called out. If you join a hardcore guild and you cant provide adequate throughput, you will be called out. If I join a casual guild and begin to nag people with my hyper-critical min/max dogma, I will be removed. The game is based on interactions... You will constantly be interacting with others. I dont think the game would be dull if everyone min/maxed. Which is also why I surround myself with min/maxers or players who clone themselves to perform the highest amount of throughput. My version of fun is winning, I absolutely love winning. If your version of fun is different, you can surround yourself with people that you are similar to. Whenever you join one of these groups of people, you will be forced or expected to play in a certain way... You will be expected to conform to their style of play. Get a fast pulling tank in a dungeon group? Hes going to expect fast heals. Get a slow frumpy tank who has to sit down after every fight? Hes likely going to expect you to go slow and cater to his needs.
The hypocritical part of his statement was calling min/maxing dull, which is a judgement and then asking others not to judge and to simply play what they want. You then complimented his hypocritical statement. He thinks min/maxing is dull, and that is judgement and that is okay. I think memeing is a bit silly and counter-intuitive. This is also a judgement. This is also okay. I would not say that and then advocate that we don't judge one another... Unlike many hardcore oriented players, I'm actually pretty flexible with a certain amount of creativity in builds so long as players continue to provide value to their team. I would never advocate that we don't judge though... I am HIGHLY judgemental, as is Selexin! The same criteria that we use to judge others will be applied when we hunt for guilds so that we can find people who are like-minded.
You will be expected to conform to whatever community you actively participate in. If you join a random group of players for a dungeon, and you are the weak link, you will be called out. If you join a hardcore guild and you cant provide adequate throughput, you will be called out. If I join a casual guild and begin to nag people with my hyper-critical min/max dogma, I will be removed. The game is based on interactions... You will constantly be interacting with others. I dont think the game would be dull if everyone min/maxed. Which is also why I surround myself with min/maxers or players who clone themselves to perform the highest amount of throughput. My version of fun is winning, I absolutely love winning. If your version of fun is different, you can surround yourself with people that you are similar to. Whenever you join one of these groups of people, you will be forced or expected to play in a certain way... You will be expected to conform to their style of play. Get a fast pulling tank in a dungeon group? Hes going to expect fast heals. Get a slow frumpy tank who has to sit down after every fight? Hes likely going to expect you to go slow and cater to his needs.
And how does this contradict with what I said?
The hypocritical part of his statement was calling min/maxing dull, which is a judgement and then asking others not to judge and to simply play what they want. You then complimented his hypocritical statement. He thinks min/maxing is dull, and that is a judgement and that is okay. I think memeing is a bit silly and counter-intuitive. This is also a judgement. This is also okay. I would not say that and then advocate that we don't judge one another... Unlike many hardcore oriented players, I'm actually pretty flexible with a certain amount of creativity in builds so long as players continue to provide value to their team. I would never advocate that we don't judge though... I am HIGHLY judgemental, as is Selexin! The same criteria that we use to judge others will be applied when we hunt for guilds so that we can find people who are like-minded.
I already told you he wasnt saying minmaxing is dull but rather the case if everyone did so. We are promoting the approach that you should find your own way instead of blindly follow, that was the main idea. This does not necessarily mean playing a meme spec btw.
I personally have always been more of a min-maxer then relaxed player but I dislike the approach of a player dictating what is the right way to play the game. I will always go my own way.
I personally have always been more of a min-maxer then relaxed player but I dislike the approach of a player dictating what is the right way to play the game. I will always go my own way.
Same here :smile:
Stfuppercut & Faendor - There is a place for everyone. Just because I think if everyone min maxed the game would be dull, doesn't mean people shouldn't/wouldn't do it. I will watch with awe as the top echelon of guilds min-max their way to world firsts, but I think if everyone did it (or rather tried to do it), the game would become very dull/boring (predictable/stale). That is my view, but it is not everyone's view and it shouldn't be. If a group of people can get together and "win" World of Warcraft, they will likely get a lot of enjoyment out of it, if they are that way inclined.
As for meme specs, if everyone did meme specs, the game would be chaotic. There would be a lot of disputes, a lot of failures and a lot of frustrations. Sure some people would thrive and have fun, but it would not work.
What this game can harness, is less black and white than maybe what has been suggested here in this thread. There is not 2 distinct groups. There will be overlaps, which will be apparent in PUGs especially. You will have min-maxers and memes running together, and it will work fine. Dungeons are quite easy so I don't think there is going to be a huge divide caused by these two groups, and there are so many shades of gray in between that everyone evens out in the end.
I also don't think guilds will be as black and white either. I know my guild in vanilla had no 'meme' spec players, but we also weren't hardcore or perfectly min-maxed. We had some sub-par players, some great players, some min-maxed, some making it up as they went along. At the end of the day the community and friendships dictated the enjoyment more than the min-max or meme spec percentage of the group. We had players that couldn't complete the benediction staff questline and needed others to login to do it for them. But we brought them along because they were genuinely nice people and good to hang out with. This is not a min-max attitude, and is not meme related either. There are more than 50 shades of gray in WoW :wink:
Hardcore guilds of perfect min-max will exist, and they will enjoy it. Meme guilds with boomkins, ret paladins, enh shamans, melee hunters and smite priests will exist, and they will enjoy it. I was in a guild on an Australian private server and the Guild Master there wanted to make a group in a raid with Feral Druid (Leader of the Pack), Hunter (Trueshot Aura), Enh Shaman (Grace of Air & Stormstrike debuff), Ele Shaman (Nature dmg for stormstrike debuff) and Boomkin (3% Spell Crit Aura and Nature dmg for stormstrike debuff). This is like, prime meme level. But also is quite effective, the melee classes compliment each other heavily, and the enh shaman compliments the two nature casters with stormstrike debuff. It's not as good as a resto shaman dropping WF totem with 2 fury warriors and 2 rogues, but hey, it does sound like fun!
This thread is still going? Who would have thunk that it's so difficult to realize that different people enjoy different things. :)
P.S.: I mean no offense to anyone. I just think it's mind blowing that other people try to tell me that a way of enjoying a game - the rules of which you cannot break or change - can be wrong.