killerduki
As you posted quite a few private server videos, especially the old 5 man videos without BIS gear do you know if that server you where playing on changed damage values of enemies? I watched that stratholme living run and was quite surprised at the incoming damage.
The server you see is Nostalrius , which latest raid videos were from period during Nostalrius Elysium merge , some of videos was from other Pservers (those who are not progression ones like scourge event and naxx) .
But the regular ones are from pre 1.9 and during 1.9 patch Nostalrius ones, which later become elysium and ended up today as lightshope where majority people play and base from their opinion.
Original Classic is not pserver, but as someone who has played original Vanilla and cleared all raids there, i assure you i know how things work and are indeed easier than all bugged pservers who you as protection paladin cant tank thanks to bugs and non working/wrong working boss mechanics.
Jeez Killerduki. No reason to be so offended. Eez homie
Neither i care, nor i am offended at all.
Its how these debates are when you have to deal with those who willing to live in ignorance and therefore are here to spill false info , lies and throwing eggs and stones with unfair criticism.
Without them backing up their claims, therefore they request things that are nearly impossible , imposing cherry pick arguing debates.
Jeez Killerduki. No reason to be so offended. Eez homie
Neither i care, nor i am offended at all.
Its how these debates are when you have to deal with those who willing to live in ignorance and therefore are here to spill false info , lies and throwing eggs and stones with unfair criticism.
Without them backing up their claims, therefore they request things that are nearly impossible , imposing cherry pick arguing debates.
The criticism was valid and valid sources were given in opposition to your claims. At which time you threw a tantrum and began calling other content creators noobs in a fit of childish rage. You went on to start calling people on the forum names and lost control of your emotions... Paladin tanks are a fringe spec that wont be taken to most raids. They have irrefutable issues to overcome like the lack of a taunt, low mana pool and limited ranged options for pulling. They rely heavily on consumable usage and require a lot of min/maxing to be functional. As a tank, you are far more reliant on the competence of your fellow players than with either a feral or a warrior. A lot of your threat comes from being hit and you struggle getting threat back AFTER you have lost it in comparison to the other two tanks. The spec is suboptimal. In regards to OP's question, this spec is NOT something that a casual player should attempt to main.
A great example of how we know prot paladins are awful is that there are very few of them. The population of any given spec is correlated to the performance of that spec. The cumulative time and experience that millions of players have invested into the game would surmise that prot pallys are not good tanks. One outlier claiming the opposite is not a compelling counter argument. You have linked videos of taking this suboptimal spec and forcing it to work while being supported by a group of enablers. We acknowledge that this spec CAN work (which was never in question to begin with). It is not optimal and it is not worth playing for the majority of users. We have outlined our opposition to the spec and linked videos of creators who echo the same concerns that we do.
We look forward to monitoring your journey through Classic and hope you will keep us updated. I would be very interested in seeing you main tank in a progressive raid on the first few nights of MC. I would prefer an unedited video of your entire MC run, from the first pull to the last on your guilds first attempt in MC. Before you have trained your team to account for your own short-comings as a paladin tank. Videos like this will show us how valid this spec is in contrast to the other options available. We are only a few months way. You will be able to prove us wrong soon.... ..... ...... or not.
They have irrefutable issues to overcome like the lack of a taunt, low mana pool and limited ranged options for pulling. They rely heavily on consumable usage and require a lot of min/maxing to be functional.
TL:DR
How does that explain the evidence which you ignored and you was disapproved already 3 pages backward ?
https://barrens.chat/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1655&start=75
So, the "extreme minimum" to tank raid bosses is apparently a Flask, four Elixir-type consumables, 16 stamina food, full stack of Runes and Major mana potions. Care to explain @Stfuppercut how was killerduki able to tank raid bosses in his videos NOT using all these listed consumables? For example his Magmadar video, where he's using a single elixir from the list, no flask, no other consumables, no potion, no dark rune.
But i guess Psojed was right when he wrote there :
Killerduki is correct in saying that you're throwing statements left and right, but describing only YOUR anecdotal experience or some unconfirmed general consensus as the proof of your statements.
@Stfuppercut i know you are great with good English writing skills to re write what you been disapproved for thousand of times.
You are repeating again the same "Huge Creative Wall of Text" filled with lies and false information , so heading all around and re explaining to you again and again something you are going to ignore (And then repeating the same own Huge Creative Wall of Text) , with my poor English is just wasting my time .
I'd rather let people re read the previous Pages and see how your lies are repeating all over again all the time.
Not going to waste my time Quoting with answers toward every single bit of your "wall of text" false information.
You are repeating again the same "Huge Creative Wall of Text" filled with lies and false information , so heading all around and re explaining to you again and again something you are going to ignore (And then repeating the same own Huge Creative Wall of Text)
"Huge Creative Wall of Text"? You mean your last post from Page 6?
And what about the solid debunking of your claims of Pre-raid BiS blue gear from Page 5 that you completely ignored and avoided?
with my poor English is just wasting my time
You are on an English forum speaking in English. It is your choice to be here, and it is not any of our responsibilities to take it easier on you for not being as fluent as other members. It could, however, be your choice to leave and join a forum that shares your native tongue if you feel it would allow your ideas to be shared properly.
Insisting on being present in an English forum where you believe yourself to be at a disadvantage and whine about it just reeks of a desire to be seen and known by the English-speaking WoW community which is likely much larger than your own with the lion's share of potential viewership.
I am not interested in your desires to be famous or a WoW streamer, and don't care that you feel you have put yourself at a disadvantage to achieve this.
You are repeating again the same "Huge Creative Wall of Text" filled with lies and false information , so heading all around and re explaining to you again and again something you are going to ignore (And then repeating the same own Huge Creative Wall of Text)
"Huge Creative Wall of Text"? You mean your last post from Page 6?
And what about the solid debunking of your claims of Pre-raid BiS blue gear from Page 5 that you completely ignored and avoided?
with my poor English is just wasting my time
You are on an English forum speaking in English. It is your choice to be here, and it is not any of our responsibilities to take it easier on you for not being as fluent as other members. It could, however, be your choice to leave and join a forum that shares your native tongue if you feel it would allow your ideas to be shared properly.
Insisting on being present in an English forum where you believe yourself to be at a disadvantage and whine about it just reeks of a desire to be seen and known by the English-speaking WoW community which is likely much larger than your own with the lion's share of potential viewership.
I am not interested in your desires to be famous or a WoW streamer, and don't care that you feel you have put yourself at a disadvantage to achieve this.
And what about the solid debunking of your claims of Pre-raid BiS blue gear from Page 5 that you completely ignored and avoided?
Your debunking was debunked , but you still ignored it:
Quoting it:
Pre Raid BiS Blues on progression night , NO THUNDERFURY , (Even Skarm using shit tons of Consumes in his Videos despite him wearing a Tier 3 Equipment,so not using Potion is also telling that you play double standards here and you are here for trolling only), Pre Raid group and Green geared group!
Garr - Only Armor Potion used (unlike Skarm with shit lots of Consumes and T3)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IPir_IouQ8
Gehenas - Didn't use Potions for mana at all , just Elixir for SP and Food (unlike Skarm with shit tons of Consumes and T3)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-vQ_TnB6XQ
Lucifron - Armor scroll , Food buff and SP Elixir , used only once Demonic Rune because Curse from Boss drained my mana, but that's all (unlike Skarm with shit tons of Consumes and T3).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fe6CrUoLB58
Majordomo - SP Elixir and only at beginning GFPP , no Runes ,no Pots used (unlike Skarm with shit tons of Consumes and T3).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SDfyrB726Q
Your Ignorance is so strong and demands so big with nothing to offer as a result to prove your claims!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSrHztmOwq8&t=14s
Gear used, which you ignored again and repeating the same shits again. (only difference is Flurry Axe using which i bough from AH) .
You are on an English forum speaking in English. It is your choice to be here, and it is not any of our responsibilities to take it easier on you for not being as fluent as other members. It could, however, be your choice to leave and join a forum that shares your native tongue if you feel it would allow your ideas to be shared properly.
Insisting on being present in an English forum where you believe yourself to be at a disadvantage and whine about it just reeks of a desire to be seen and known by the English-speaking WoW community which is likely much larger than your own with the lion's share of potential viewership.
I am not interested in your desires to be famous or a WoW streamer, and don't care that you feel you have put yourself at a disadvantage to achieve this.
I don't care about your Racism .
You should say "Thank you for communicating in English as NON-English foreigner" .
Something that you would never do in my language!
What a lovely addition to our little community. So glad to have this new member onboard. This is typically where I would rip him apart in text, but for fear of being banned for shunning/teasing such an individual I'll hold my tongue. I would hate to oose any assholery. Lets just let the new guy do his thing and act completely socially retarded while we all remain calm and cordial.
Your debunking was debunked , but you still ignored it:
Quoting it:
You admitted yourself in an earlier video that the only gear difference you had was Thunderfury. You had everything else, including AQ gear.
Even now on all of the videos you linked I can see https://classic.wowhead.com/item=20688/earthen-guard easily at a glance in all four raid videos (AQ gear). The geared state of your raid is quite visible as well.
A final video of you sitting outside the gates of IF with much less gear isn't going to change any of that.
I don't care about your Racism .
You should say "Thank you for communicating in English as NON-English foreigner" .
Something that you would never do in my language!
I have never specified my race, nor anything about race at all in this thread. Furthermore, I am not "English".
Teebling I believe Killerduki has gone too far with his slander. I would like to formally petition for a ban.
I think what is safe to say killerduki is that if it is so important to you to prove paladins are such great main tanks in raids, you better rethink your strategies. Posting videos from which gear and content are not realistic, raging, namecalling and off-topic nonsense just don't give you a very strong case. Nor does it make you any credible.
Calling someone racist because of a language issue you yourself brought up is just... I have no words.
As big a contribution as any, at this point.
So I read the entire thread.
First off, I am really sorry you guys have to deal with Duki. He's been a constant plague on every forum, discord, or serious TC website for years now, and will turn any discussion on Paladin into a shouting match with outlandish claims and then say he's supporting it with evidence in form of videos that does not show anything like what is claimed. Engaging with this in any serious manner is a fools errand and will lead nowhere as he will just keep on requesting evidence, and then ignore any evidence that actually gets posted over and over until everyone tire of discussing with him.
Secondly, i'd like to point out that those raid videos he link are all showing extremely low DPS. You can calculate the total TPS by looking up the total threat on KTM and divide that by the fight length. In every case the threat is miles behind a Warrior or Druid with equal gear. They are all simply very poor representations of an actual raid in which debuffs and buffs are applied and used optimally, and DPS are playing to their full potential.
Let's not even begin to discuss how he either likes to cherry pick examples or flat out lie about things in order to prove his point (The training dummy in the video he linked is level 1). It's also pretty obvious once you have debated him for a while that he dont actually seem to understand the concept of evidence.
Anyway, not going to directly address any of Duki's posts here, but I do want to point out that they are all from private servers. Some very noteworthy differences between Private servers and the Classic Beta is as follows:
Holy Damage is subject to partial resists due to bosses having 15 Holy Resistance from being 3 levels higher. Even though Holy Resist as a stat does not exists, all spells can still resist partially or binary against higher level targets. There is no way to gear around this.
Partial resists apply to at least:
* Seal of Righteousness
* Judgement of Righteousness
* Consecration
* Retribution Aura (I believe this one has binary resist)
It probably also applies to Exorcism and Holy Wrath, and possibly Holy Shield. This means a net decrease in threat of the Paladin. The difference is not major over the course of a fight, but it can lead to a higher probability of a bad luck scenario in which spells partially resist during the initial pull of the boss, possibly leading to someone overaggroing with no Taunt to get the boss back.
Additionally, Seal of Righteousness does not trigger Judgement of Wisdom in Classic. This means our mana regen contribution from Judgement of Wisdom is cut in half, leading to further lower our already strained mana pool.
The problem with Duki is he dont seem to have ever played in a real raid with people who know what they are doing. Thus all his experiences on Paladin tanking, especially in regards to their ability to sustain mana is highly skewed as his DPS just dont produce the kind of damage that requires a full threat rotation. In a raid with good players you will be forced to use your abilities such as Judgement, Consecration and Holy Shield on cooldown. With a mana pool of under 3000, and no additional Judgement of Wisdom procs from SoR it means mana will be a huge and major concern in Classic even more than it already is on private servers.
Anyway. These were the most major differences between private servers and Classic.
Prot Paladins do suffer from a lot of other issues though. The first and most obvious is lack of a taunt ability. Some bosses straight up require a taunt in raids. Firemaw, Ebonroc, Flamegor, Fankriss and Four Horsemen. These bosses will be either extremely difficult without a taunt, or straight up undoable. On other bosses a taunt is not required, but a huge asset. Examples would be Sartura and C'Thun Giant Claw Tentacles.
Apart from this, more or less every trash mob in the game can be taunted, and with the amount of trash that exists within each raid I can guarantee you there will be times where a taunt is needed. Thats just the reality of the game. People cannot play perfectly forever.
We also suffer greatly from a lack of gear itemized for us. Warriors get 3 full tier sets for tanking, with one pseudo tank set ( Conqueror ) that also happens to have pieces that are superior for threat generation while also providing defensive stats.
Paladins have no such gear. We are instead forced to pick up off-pieces, most of the time worse itemized than the Warrior tier pieces. This is on top of our already much lower base health, and often the pieces that are Best in Slot is several tiers behind Warriors, meaning we not only have much lower health than Warriors, we also have lower Armor, and Warriors have 10% additional damage reduction from Defensive Stance.
This problem gets even worse when you consider that a lot of gear Warriors can use have both Offensive and Defensive stats. Conqueror f.ex have hit, agi, str, defense and high stam. Because Warriors use physical stats to increase their threat generation they can often find all the stats they need in the same piece. When they cannot, the physical DPS gear they can equip often have very high stamina to begin with.
Paladin threat is not based on physical damage however. It's mostly based on spells. This means our threat scales with Spellpower, and is limited by mana. Spellpower items typically have much lower stamina, and they never have mitigation stats. We also have absolutely terrible spell coefficients. SoR damage gets increased by 10% of our Spellpower, Holy Shield by 5% per Block. Consecration is 4% per tick. Even with very high levels of spellpower the threat scaling is just really poor compared to what a Warrior and Druid can pull by taking an equal loss in mitgation.
Requiring Judgement of the Crusader and Judgement of Wisdom to both always be maintained on the boss is also an obvious downside as the Prot can only maintain one of these by himself, meaning you rely on either a Ret Pala or Holy Pala to provide and keep up the other Judgement.
Another big problem the class face is that unlike a Warrior, we have Mana. In order to maintain a high threat rotation you rely on using Major Mana Potion on cooldown. This means our potion cooldown is used up by mana pots, and we cannot maintain a Greater Stoneshield Potion for an additional 2000 Armor like a Warrior can.
This potion is what enables Warriors to go Dualwield for tanking, putting their threat output on the same level as a Druid with Manual Crowd Pummelers and ensuring the raid group can clear the dungeon fast and efficiently.
Having mana also puts the Paladin at a severe disadvantage for certain bosses that have mechanics involving mana. Some examples are Vaelastrasz where Burning Adrenaline can prematurely target the Paladin tank, or Ragnaros where any mana user will randomly get hit by Hammer of Ragnaros, causing a knockback to any player within 20 yards of the Paladin. Anyone that has done Ragnaros will know how little space you already have in the tank zone on this boss. Having an additional positional requirement for offtanks just adds unecessary risk.
There's also the obvious lack of defensive cooldowns when something does go wrong. Shield Wall is amazing to get through a tough spot. Last Stand is also a great oh-crap button, and Warriors have access to Life Giving Gem. The only real defensive cooldown available to Paladins will be Glyph of Deflection, which is a trinket dropping from Sapphiron. But that is so late in the game that at which point, who cares.
And I know Duki will come back to argue that Shield Wall is not as good as having Lay on Hands, as the armor buff from lay on hands last 2 min. He always argue this point whenever it's brought up, but it's a nonsensical argument. I dont dispute Lay on Hands being good, but not only is it nowhere close to the 75% damage reduction provided by Shield Wall, but Lay on Hands can also be cast on other players. So really a Warrior will have both buffs.
Bubble is nice and all to remove certain debuffs, but there's not a lot of bosses where this is truly useful.
I apologize if this went on and on forever, and even though my post might sound very negative, I am passionate about Paladin tanks. I love playing one, and i think they have their use. They are certainly a good class for 5man. And they can do well in raids like ZG.
But at the end of the day, there is nothing a Paladin can tank that a Warrior or Druid cannot tank better. Perhaps the only exception in the entire game would be Noth (edited), where having Exorcism as a range pickup ability will put them at a slight advantage.
Paladins have great AoE threat, but their problem is they will always require the raid to work around their weaknesses to make it work, which means the raid overall will suffer from lower DPS, and from having to use debuff slots and class compositions to support the tank rather than focusing those efforts on getting faster, smoother, clear times.
A Warrior will always have a higher health pool, higher armor, higher threat output than a Paladin. There's also strong evidence that bosses in Classic will have 0 armor after debuffs are applied which will greatly increase the threat produced by physical DPS in raids. This armor reduction also scale better for Warriors than for Paladins, and on top of the other nerfs to the Paladin class compared with private servers, this will make Paladins a suboptimal choice for any guild looking to progress through the content as the gap between Warriors and Paladins will increase even further than on private servers.
I know Duki claimed that damage values are off on private servers, and that bosses do 3-4x as much damage. This is obviously nonsense as you can go recheck any old raiding video to see the numbers more or less match the damage values on private servers. Some comparisons I have done myself show a difference of 10-15% higher damage on private servers compared to Vanilla but without knowing the exact buffs, debuffs, build and gear used in the old videos it's difficult to say for certain.
In any case, this will have an almost negligible impact on rage generation. It will make a much smaller difference than SoR not proccing Judgement of Wisdom like on private servers f.ex.
In either case, bosses having 9% additional Parry in Classic will not really affect the outcome. If anything it just means Warriors pull even further ahead as their higher health pool and armor lets them more easily soak up the extra damage from hasted parries. Weapon skill also become an option for Warrior tanks in Classic.
My real issue here is this. I think players should pick whatever spec they want to play in Classic. There's no point playing something you dont find enjoyable and ultimately we all play the game for fun.
However I think we have the responsibility to make sure players go into Classic with correct and factual information. Going around telling everyone that Paladins are the best tanks in the game when there's not a shred of evidence supporting this is not great. All it will lead to is a bunch of players rolling Paladin, leveling to 60 and then quitting when they realize they were lied to all along, and I think its incredibly selfish to do this out of some inability to admit flaws with the spec you love.
If you passionately want to play Paladin tank I say go for it. Just be aware that its going to be a constant uphill battle, with very expensive consume requirements, and you will need to be fine getting passed up on gear over and over until your other tanks have the gear you want. If you still want to do it, it can be rewarding to do. Just dont expect it will be easier or better than a Warrior or Druid, because it wont.
-Holyfrog
I think players should pick whatever spec they want to play in Classic. There's no point playing something you dont find enjoyable and ultimately we all play the game for fun.
If you passionately want to play Paladin tank I say go for it. Just be aware that its going to be a constant uphill battle
I'm just gonna emphasize these two quotes for the lazy people out here :)
Thanks a lot for your insight.
So I read the entire thread.
First off, I am really sorry you guys have to deal with Duki. He's been a constant plague on every forum, discord, or serious TC website for years now, and will turn any discussion on Paladin into a shouting match with outlandish claims and then say he's supporting it with evidence in form of videos that does not show anything like what is claimed. Engaging with this in any serious manner is a fools errand and will lead nowhere as he will just keep on requesting evidence, and then ignore any evidence that actually gets posted over and over until everyone tire of discussing with him.
Secondly, i'd like to point out that those raid videos he link are all showing extremely low DPS. You can calculate the total TPS by looking up the total threat on KTM and divide that by the fight length. In every case the threat is miles behind a Warrior or Druid with equal gear. They are all simply very poor representations of an actual raid in which debuffs and buffs are applied and used optimally, and DPS are playing to their full potential.
Let's not even begin to discuss how he either likes to cherry pick examples or flat out lie about things in order to prove his point (The training dummy in the video he linked is level 1). It's also pretty obvious once you have debated him for a while that he dont actually seem to understand the concept of evidence.
Anyway, not going to directly address any of Duki's posts here, but I do want to point out that they are all from private servers. Some very noteworthy differences between Private servers and the Classic Beta is as follows:
Holy Damage is subject to partial resists due to bosses having 15 Holy Resistance from being 3 levels higher. Even though Holy Resist as a stat does not exists, all spells can still resist partially or binary against higher level targets. There is no way to gear around this.
Partial resists apply to at least:
* Seal of Righteousness
* Judgement of Righteousness
* Consecration
* Retribution Aura (I believe this one has binary resist)
It probably also applies to Exorcism and Holy Wrath, and possibly Holy Shield. This means a net decrease in threat of the Paladin. The difference is not major over the course of a fight, but it can lead to a higher probability of a bad luck scenario in which spells partially resist during the initial pull of the boss, possibly leading to someone overaggroing with no Taunt to get the boss back.
Additionally, Seal of Righteousness does not trigger Judgement of Wisdom in Classic. This means our mana regen contribution from Judgement of Wisdom is cut in half, leading to further lower our already strained mana pool.
The problem with Duki is he dont seem to have ever played in a real raid with people who know what they are doing. Thus all his experiences on Paladin tanking, especially in regards to their ability to sustain mana is highly skewed as his DPS just dont produce the kind of damage that requires a full threat rotation. In a raid with good players you will be forced to use your abilities such as Judgement, Consecration and Holy Shield on cooldown. With a mana pool of under 3000, and no additional Judgement of Wisdom procs from SoR it means mana will be a huge and major concern in Classic even more than it already is on private servers.
Anyway. These were the most major differences between private servers and Classic.
Prot Paladins do suffer from a lot of other issues though. The first and most obvious is lack of a taunt ability. Some bosses straight up require a taunt in raids. Firemaw, Ebonroc, Flamegor, Fankriss and Four Horsemen. These bosses will be either extremely difficult without a taunt, or straight up undoable. On other bosses a taunt is not required, but a huge asset. Examples would be Sartura and C'Thun Giant Claw Tentacles.
Apart from this, more or less every trash mob in the game can be taunted, and with the amount of trash that exists within each raid I can guarantee you there will be times where a taunt is needed. Thats just the reality of the game. People cannot play perfectly forever.
We also suffer greatly from a lack of gear itemized for us. Warriors get 3 full tier sets for tanking, with one pseudo tank set ( Conqueror ) that also happens to have pieces that are superior for threat generation while also providing defensive stats.
Paladins have no such gear. We are instead forced to pick up off-pieces, most of the time worse itemized than the Warrior tier pieces. This is on top of our already much lower base health, and often the pieces that are Best in Slot is several tiers behind Warriors, meaning we not only have much lower health than Warriors, we also have lower Armor, and Warriors have 10% additional damage reduction from Defensive Stance.
This problem gets even worse when you consider that a lot of gear Warriors can use have both Offensive and Defensive stats. Conqueror f.ex have hit, agi, str, defense and high stam. Because Warriors use physical stats to increase their threat generation they can often find all the stats they need in the same piece. When they cannot, the physical DPS gear they can equip often have very high stamina to begin with.
Paladin threat is not based on physical damage however. It's mostly based on spells. This means our threat scales with Spellpower, and is limited by mana. Spellpower items typically have much lower stamina, and they never have mitigation stats. We also have absolutely terrible spell coefficients. SoR damage gets increased by 10% of our Spellpower, Holy Shield by 5% per Block. Consecration is 4% per tick. Even with very high levels of spellpower the threat scaling is just really poor compared to what a Warrior and Druid can pull by taking an equal loss in mitgation.
Requiring Judgement of the Crusader and Judgement of Wisdom to both always be maintained on the boss is also an obvious downside as the Prot can only maintain one of these by himself, meaning you rely on either a Ret Pala or Holy Pala to provide and keep up the other Judgement.
Another big problem the class face is that unlike a Warrior, we have Mana. In order to maintain a high threat rotation you rely on using Major Mana Potion on cooldown. This means our potion cooldown is used up by mana pots, and we cannot maintain a Greater Stoneshield Potion for an additional 2000 Armor like a Warrior can.
This potion is what enables Warriors to go Dualwield for tanking, putting their threat output on the same level as a Druid with Manual Crowd Pummelers and ensuring the raid group can clear the dungeon fast and efficiently.
Having mana also puts the Paladin at a severe disadvantage for certain bosses that have mechanics involving mana. Some examples are Vaelastrasz where Burning Adrenaline can prematurely target the Paladin tank, or Ragnaros where any mana user will randomly get hit by Hammer of Ragnaros, causing a knockback to any player within 20 yards of the Paladin. Anyone that has done Ragnaros will know how little space you already have in the tank zone on this boss. Having an additional positional requirement for offtanks just adds unecessary risk.
There's also the obvious lack of defensive cooldowns when something does go wrong. Shield Wall is amazing to get through a tough spot. Last Stand is also a great oh-crap button, and Warriors have access to Life Giving Gem. The only real defensive cooldown available to Paladins will be Glyph of Deflection, which is a trinket dropping from Sapphiron. But that is so late in the game that at which point, who cares.
And I know Duki will come back to argue that Shield Wall is not as good as having Lay on Hands, as the armor buff from lay on hands last 2 min. He always argue this point whenever it's brought up, but it's a nonsensical argument. I dont dispute Lay on Hands being good, but not only is it nowhere close to the 75% damage reduction provided by Shield Wall, but Lay on Hands can also be cast on other players. So really a Warrior will have both buffs.
Bubble is nice and all to remove certain debuffs, but there's not a lot of bosses where this is truly useful.
I apologize if this went on and on forever, and even though my post might sound very negative, I am passionate about Paladin tanks. I love playing one, and i think they have their use. They are certainly a good class for 5man. And they can do well in raids like ZG.
But at the end of the day, there is nothing a Paladin can tank that a Warrior or Druid cannot tank better. Perhaps the only exception in the entire game would be Heigan, where having Exorcism as a range pickup ability will put them at a slight advantage.
Paladins have great AoE threat, but their problem is they will always require the raid to work around their weaknesses to make it work, which means the raid overall will suffer from lower DPS, and from having to use debuff slots and class compositions to support the tank rather than focusing those efforts on getting faster, smoother, clear times.
A Warrior will always have a higher health pool, higher armor, higher threat output than a Paladin. There's also strong evidence that bosses in Classic will have 0 armor after debuffs are applied which will greatly increase the threat produced by physical DPS in raids. This armor reduction also scale better for Warriors than for Paladins, and on top of the other nerfs to the Paladin class compared with private servers, this will make Paladins a suboptimal choice for any guild looking to progress through the content as the gap between Warriors and Paladins will increase even further than on private servers.
I know Duki claimed that damage values are off on private servers, and that bosses do 3-4x as much damage. This is obviously nonsense as you can go recheck any old raiding video to see the numbers more or less match the damage values on private servers. Some comparisons I have done myself show a difference of 10-15% higher damage on private servers compared to Vanilla but without knowing the exact buffs, debuffs, build and gear used in the old videos it's difficult to say for certain.
In any case, this will have an almost negligible impact on rage generation. It will make a much smaller difference than SoR not proccing Judgement of Wisdom like on private servers f.ex.
In either case, bosses having 9% additional Parry in Classic will not really affect the outcome. If anything it just means Warriors pull even further ahead as their higher health pool and armor lets them more easily soak up the extra damage from hasted parries. Weapon skill also become an option for Warrior tanks in Classic.
My real issue here is this. I think players should pick whatever spec they want to play in Classic. There's no point playing something you dont find enjoyable and ultimately we all play the game for fun.
However I think we have the responsibility to make sure players go into Classic with correct and factual information. Going around telling everyone that Paladins are the best tanks in the game when there's not a shred of evidence supporting this is not great. All it will lead to is a bunch of players rolling Paladin, leveling to 60 and then quitting when they realize they were lied to all along, and I think its incredibly selfish to do this out of some inability to admit flaws with the spec you love.
If you passionately want to play Paladin tank I say go for it. Just be aware that its going to be a constant uphill battle, with very expensive consume requirements, and you will need to be fine getting passed up on gear over and over until your other tanks have the gear you want. If you still want to do it, it can be rewarding to do. Just dont expect it will be easier or better than a Warrior or Druid, because it wont.
-Holyfrog
So I read the entire thread.
First off, I am really sorry you guys have to deal with Duki. He's been a constant plague on every forum, discord, or serious TC website for years now, and will turn any discussion on Paladin into a shouting match with outlandish claims and then say he's supporting it with evidence in form of videos that does not show anything like what is claimed. Engaging with this in any serious manner is a fools errand and will lead nowhere as he will just keep on requesting evidence, and then ignore any evidence that actually gets posted over and over until everyone tire of discussing with him.
Tells the person who believes in non invented Spec = Spelladin. But sure, let find out who is the plague here spilling fasle info in creative English words!
Secondly, i'd like to point out that those raid videos he link are all showing extremely low DPS. You can calculate the total TPS by looking up the total threat on KTM and divide that by the fight length. In every case the threat is miles behind a Warrior or Druid with equal gear. They are all simply very poor representations of an actual raid in which debuffs and buffs are applied and used optimally, and DPS are playing to their full potential.
All of the Videos are recorded on a "Progression Raiding" , with "Progression Geared people" , that mean the whole Raid is equal standard geared as the Protection Paladin and not getting Boosted by Full Tier 3 GG .
The higher progression is , the more Gear you get = more Aggro = More DPS , same rule Apply to both Paladin Tank and Damage Dealers in the Group , it goes all together within the Progress.
Unlike that, there is no single Video of Warrior or Druid doing the same progression in order to compare how they are going to even be , therefore Druid not abusing the "creative use of mechanic" like MCP filled in his Bags!
Let's not even begin to discuss how he either likes to cherry pick examples or flat out lie about things in order to prove his point (The training dummy in the video he linked is level 1). It's also pretty obvious once you have debated him for a while that he dont actually seem to understand the concept of evidence.
And the difference is going to be like let say what :
Hit Cap = 0 Misses anyway , Holy Resistance wont Apply for SoR (It's bug even in Beta and is proven by old Archives and Videos from 2006) , Parry = Parry Haste by Paladin = Faster swings for more JoW procs/SoR procs/Weapon Procs = More aggro , Parry Haste by Boss = More return damage against Boss by Paladin.
Glancing blows will make barely 5% difference from White swings, since White swings are not a big factor for Paladin threat.
Anyway, not going to directly address any of Duki's posts here, but I do want to point out that they are all from private servers. Some very noteworthy differences between Private servers and the Classic Beta is as follows:
Holy Damage is subject to partial resists due to bosses having 15 Holy Resistance from being 3 levels higher. Even though Holy Resist as a stat does not exists, all spells can still resist partially or binary against higher level targets. There is no way to gear around this.
Only because it is Beta, doesn't mean there are no bugs within , SoR is proven as Bugged with evidence :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DymPtTBzB4 -
rapunzel4771
Published on Jun 12, 2006
No Partial Resists by SoR against higher target.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjZkX5MFjW8
phreneticdotnet
Published on Nov 5, 2006
Guild Phrenetic in Sunken Temple for the first time killing Jammal'an the Prophet. March 23rd, 2005 @ 10:43 PM
No Partial Resists again!
Partial resists apply to at least:
* Seal of Righteousness
* Judgement of Righteousness
* Consecration
* Retribution Aura (I believe this one has binary resist)
It probably also applies to Exorcism and Holy Wrath, and possibly Holy Shield. This means a net decrease in threat of the Paladin. The difference is not major over the course of a fight, but it can lead to a higher probability of a bad luck scenario in which spells partially resist during the initial pull of the boss, possibly leading to someone overaggroing with no Taunt to get the boss back.
This is how you talk out of your mind without knowing stuffs and without being good informed , it is hell yeah funny how you come with all those conclusions very easy , only because something is bugged, doesn't mean it works like that !
https://youtu.be/84OwHLAuQzc?t=42
Atraira
Published on Mar 15, 2007
Quoting his words : "What about before bc , how did Paladin Tank without 2.0 patch" and then he began !
No Seal of Righteousness Partial Resists , No Consecration Partial Resists , No Retribution Aura Partial Resists, No Holy Shield Partial Resists at all!
This is evidence that you spill lies and false info in extremely dangerous and creative ways!
Not only that , the above 2 Videos also are evidence that SoR does not Partial Resist as such "Partial Resist" should ALWAYS occur if target is higher than you at least 1 lvl!
Additionally, Seal of Righteousness does not trigger Judgement of Wisdom in Classic. This means our mana regen contribution from Judgement of Wisdom is cut in half, leading to further lower our already strained mana pool.
There is nothing cut in half , i have 0 problems if i don't have double JoW Procs, only your so called "Invented Spelladins" are going to have that problems , not skilled Protection Paladin.
That's even evidence where i don't even use Judge of Wisdom even :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I-Y9vd5mPk&t=3s
No Judgement of Wisdom , No Runes, No Mana Pots. Still doing the fight easy without problems.
Only noobs do have Mana issues , not me , but obviously this apply to you .
The problem with Duki is he dont seem to have ever played in a real raid with people who know what they are doing. Thus all his experiences on Paladin tanking, especially in regards to their ability to sustain mana is highly skewed as his DPS just dont produce the kind of damage that requires a full threat rotation. In a raid with good players you will be forced to use your abilities such as Judgement, Consecration and Holy Shield on cooldown. With a mana pool of under 3000, and no additional Judgement of Wisdom procs from SoR it means mana will be a huge and major concern in Classic even more than it already is on private servers.
You speak as you are an expert about this Game and that you know me very good.
In reality you talk out of your ass some conclusions.
First of all to bring some claims about me, you need to provide evidence for them ,unfortunately you don't have.
Second of all is that YOU NEVER EVER PLAYED WITH ME in order to know how i play and who i am !
Real DPS = Real Progression = AQ40 , Naxx etc :
?_nc_cat=107&_nc_oc=AQlvaTMnLf0JeseiWObVCZ4Tnt2XwIwYotmrJA3DZWdh_NBx7CZKdGaC7g9-lVzZlcg&_nc_ht=scontent.fskp2-1.fna&oh=e8478da47e55096da93488cd03e9b3c3&oe=5DB75048
Thaddius = the most intensive threat fight with very short time to kill , you really DO NEED SPAM AND KILL IT FASTER!
?_nc_cat=105&_nc_oc=AQmMYAvBP8ZOHz2TjGaQLrNb4izbGP5-0KkCCF_HPSkNaHEe3tbsEfJCz811-zgtEYw&_nc_ht=scontent.fskp2-1.fna&oh=0c61c3aca89086e24406fbfeb77a4e4b&oe=5DB2DCAC
Naxx is Aggro intensive Raid and not some ordinary casual raid!
Prot Paladins do suffer from a lot of other issues though. The first and most obvious is lack of a taunt ability. Some bosses straight up require a taunt in raids. Firemaw, Ebonroc, Flamegor, Fankriss and Four Horsemen. These bosses will be either extremely difficult without a taunt, or straight up undoable.
Time to educate yourself about it , because this is evidence that you speak out of what Trolls says and out of your minds , together with Skarm and Cystheen you have 0 clues how things work even!
I was waiting for it!
Four Horsemen :
Thats the only excuse everyone always bring.
Its hard for paladin but doable still.
1 of the horse you can tank with 2 tanks soaking 8 debuffs
While as paladin you will make threat , as warrior you will just taunt until 8th mark without threat making.
Each mark reduce tank threat when it hit
Which mean at the end when 8th mark hit the warr, he dont taunt and pala will have the aggro.
The horse with holy damage is the one you can do as pala and 1 tank
Its hardest fight , but still doable for pala tank
The debuffs which 4hm lands to the Tank , reduces his Aggro down by 25% (unless pservers bug) .
Which mean when Warrior Taunt , he doesn't do much threats and at the last debuff , he doesn't do any threats and he is going to be 2nd on Aggro when debuff land, that how Automatically Paladin is going to take over the Horse.
You can survive up to 8 Debuffs, Well as i said , it is hardest fight for Paladin Tank and most Challenging, but not impossible. If you rotate with 8 debuffs, it is going to have time to use only 2 tanks for 1 Horse (easiest is top right) . While rest of 6 tanks rotate thru the other 3 horses ignoring the horse you tank. When other Tanks kill 1 of the Horses, they simply assist you and job done.
Or repeating as better explanation :
Let me Begin:
The most easiest of them is either the Shadow (top left) or Holy (top right) Horse .
You as a Paladin , using BiS Gear, all consumes and world Buffs , can manage to grow and have up to 14k HP or more.
Which mean , you are now able to tank (with some efforts) and handle 8 Debuffs from the horse.
How the Rotation and strategy work , together with 1 Tank (it will be hard for Healers, but doable) Warrior or Druid , who is able to Taunt, you can 2 Tank one of these 2 horses, since their normal damage is weak , but debuffs are only strong dmg taken.
First you as Paladin go there and Tank up to 6 debuffs (each of them reduce threats) and burn the whole mana trying to build massive amount of threats (exorcism ftw).
Once you get 6 debuffs, the Warrior runs and Taunt it from you (same rule by debuffs apply to him) , while he make extra tiny threats in order to take and keep the target from you , he should not do threats,but enough to keep the horse on him without making more than 110% threats compare to Paladin (control over threats).
Once the Warrior goes up to 7 Debuffs (exact time when the Paladin debuffs are about to gone) he uses Last Stand or Shield Wall , so he can manage to survive the 8th without causing problem to healer, for the last debuff he simply not making threats.
Once the last debuff hit the Warrior , thanks to aggro reducing by each mark , the Warrior is going to loose his threats and the Horse will automatically run back to the previous Tank (Paladin) who will be taking over from the Warrior with Exorcism and Judgement.
The Paladin then , can manage to tank up to 8 Debuffs with all cd's and Priest Bubble on him in order to Absorb and Survive the last one.
And vise versa with Warrior taking over at the end.
(challenging,but doable,never impossible)
Until the second time Paladin take over up to 8 debuffs (building up massive threats), the group already had like nearly 3 minutes spend, by that time , they should already killed one of the horses , which mean , you have extra tanks that are going to make it easy and take over this Horse too for lesser debuffs.
The Healers threats in this case it will never be any problem , since they constantly loose their threats by swapping and get the first 4 debuffs .
The only Place , this might not work is Private Servers , if they don't have this properly scripted.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3 Drakes and particulary Firemaw :
Have Warrior Taunting you when Drake is about to use his Ability called (Wing Buffed) , let the Warrior or Druid (whoever is going to Taunt you) sit on the right side of the Boss (or left , opposite from you). Once he Taunt and then Boss use his Ability "Wing Buffed" , he is going to loose threat and you will remain with your original threat , then Boss will return back to you automatically.
- Wing Buffet = reduce threat by 25% toward the Main Target (In Pservers this is bugged and it wipes more than 50% or full amount of threat) . (he does that Ability each
Make sure Offtank taunt you 10 Seconds before "Wing Buffed" Ability from Boss is used in case he resist, so he will have a chance to Mocking Bow or re use 2nd time Taunt .
That mean you only need Fire Resistance Gear , so you can resist 75% of his Debuffs, which makes you Tank/Spank that Boss without risk of loosing Aggro (if Offtanks Taunt you in time correctly) .
Fight is simple , have Offtank taunting you for Wing Buffeds and enjoy being Main Tank.
This same rule apply for all 3 drakes , only difference between 1/2 and 3rd Drake is that at 1/2 you need Fire Resistance Gear while at 3rd Drake you need Shadow Resistance Gear and Mortal Strike on Boss (welcome) .
Use DBM Addon , it shows you timing for Wing Buffet.
Examples would be Sartura
https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Battleguard_Sartura?oldid=338277
Revision as of 20:19, November 23, 2006
Quoting:
Satura and her adds will occasionally reset aggro for several seconds and start chasing random people for a duration of 5 seconds. After those 5 seconds they will return to the highest aggro target, so as long as you don't pull aggro off of the tank they will go back to him.
Evidence about your lack of knowledge regarding Protection Paladins and how things work in Raid and that you speak out of mind instead of facts and reality!
C'Thun Giant Claw Tentacles.
I don't see them as any problem ,since they are affected by aggro and no taunt swapping there.
On top of that as Protection Paladin they are very easy , since you can Stun them and use Seal of Justice to constant bash them and keep them interrupted .
Apart from this, more or less every trash mob in the game can be taunted, and with the amount of trash that exists within each raid I can guarantee you there will be times where a taunt is needed. Thats just the reality of the game. People cannot play perfectly forever.
King against Trash killing is AoE Tank = Protection Paladin , no Warrior can be better than Protection Paladin as such since Paladin can very easy obtain multiple mobs on him without risking his Gear or without relying on special Buffs, Warrior is very low and bad.
We also suffer greatly from a lack of gear itemized for us. Warriors get 3 full tier sets for tanking, with one pseudo tank set ( Conqueror ) that also happens to have pieces that are superior for threat generation while also providing defensive stats.
Paladins have no such gear. We are instead forced to pick up off-pieces, most of the time worse itemized than the Warrior tier pieces. This is on top of our already much lower base health, and often the pieces that are Best in Slot is several tiers behind Warriors, meaning we not only have much lower health than Warriors, we also have lower Armor, and Warriors have 10% additional damage reduction from Defensive Stance.
Except of the Def Stance benefit Warrior do have , Higher Stamina wont change "Mitigation" that you got from Tier 3, this is compensate to the extra 30% Block Value benefit Paladin do have and you ignoring to mention it even.
As far for Armor concern , Paladin using Offset Items can also get Armor Cap = Damage Mitigation equal to Warriors.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuIfwHZ5C9I&t=2s
Educate yourself how Gearing as Protection Paladin work!
This problem gets even worse when you consider that a lot of gear Warriors can use have both Offensive and Defensive stats. Conqueror f.ex have hit, agi, str, defense and high stam. Because Warriors use physical stats to increase their threat generation they can often find all the stats they need in the same piece. When they cannot, the physical DPS gear they can equip often have very high stamina to begin with.
Paladins also do have lot of Gear that can be used as Offensive , for Example Tier 2 Set have shit tons of Stamina , Armor . Same as Naxx Offset pieces and PVP Set do have lots of Stamina and Armor and can be used as Tanking.
Warrior using DPS Gear is equal and same as sacrificing his Defense , which mean Paladin and Warrior are in the same boat , especially that in the Video you can educate yourself how Paladin reach beyond def cap and can compensate with DPS Gear (SP) for more threat without anything being sacrificed and using more Stamina instead!
Paladin threat is not based on physical damage however.This means our threat scales with Spellpower, and is limited by mana.
Bullshit , Paladin threat is based on everything Spell and Physical !
Evidence is this :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wE1viI_FZRo
(7 Minutes fight= 0 mana issues, there is no fight where you can do max threat that last for 7 minutes and those who are longer are with breaks where you can regen it!)
50% of Paladin threat comes from Physical damage!
Spellpower items typically have much lower stamina, and they never have mitigation stats.
Mitigation stat = damage reduction = Armor.
https://classicdb.ch/?item=16951
375 Armor
+21 Stamina
Equip: Increases damage and healing done by magical spells and effects by up to 7.
Find me a single Warrior Piece that offers such high amount of Stamina Bracer and do provide high amount of Physical damage Stat !
SoR damage gets increased by 10% of our Spellpower, Holy Shield by 5% per Block. Consecration is 4% per tick. Even with very high levels of spellpower the threat scaling is just really poor compared to what a Warrior and Druid can pull by taking an equal loss in mitgation.
And Warrior Abilities coefficients are what?
Limited to Weapon and Shield?!!!
Please straight your facts before you spill more nonsense , Paladins do scale with everything unlike you as Warrior who is limited to 2 Items!
Requiring Judgement of the Crusader and Judgement of Wisdom to both always be maintained on the boss is also an obvious downside as the Prot can only maintain one of these by himself, meaning you rely on either a Ret Pala or Holy Pala to provide and keep up the other Judgement.
I don't really need both of them , Judgement of Wisdom is enough and it does benefit to everyone , i don't need any special relying in order to Tank , but everything is welcome to be part of ,if not then why not ?
Another big problem the class face is that unlike a Warrior, we have Mana. In order to maintain a high threat rotation you rely on using Major Mana Potion on cooldown.
You do have Rage and you Rage starving , so you need Rage Pots in order to maintain a high threat too!
This means our potion cooldown is used up by mana pots, and we cannot maintain a Greater Stoneshield Potion for an additional 2000 Armor like a Warrior can.
Not really , i do have Runes for Mana job, i can always use Greater Stoneshield Potion for additional 2000 Armor too!
This potion is what enables Warriors to go Dualwield for tanking, putting their threat output on the same level as a Druid with Manual Crowd Pummelers and ensuring the raid group can clear the dungeon fast and efficiently.
Parry Haste 14% in Classic is going to Reckbomb the shit out of your Duel Wield and MCP Tank!
Having mana also puts the Paladin at a severe disadvantage for certain bosses that have mechanics involving mana.
Not really if you know how they work.
Some examples are Vaelastrasz where Burning Adrenaline can prematurely target the Paladin tank,
let me educate you , since you keep up facts from pservers and you do not describe them as Original Classic how they work , since you are clueless :
https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Vaelastrasz?oldid=347980
Vaelastrasz
Revision as of 01:35, November 30, 2006
Vael only casts Burning Adrenaline in two scenarios: He will cast it on random mana users thruought the fight and he will cast it on the current tank every 45 seconds. 1 tank killed every 45 seconds for 3 minutes --> 3 / 0.75 = 4 tanks. When the MT is afflicted, healers must be ready to transition to the next tank while keeping the old one up at the same time untill the debuff kills him. Thus, the fight requires 4 tanks in a threat-building queue.
Regardless of how you see it or believe it , Main Tank is ALWAYS going to be affected by Burning Adrenaline each 45 seconds , even Warriors or Druids.
This is perfect example that you just use Creative Wall of Text and you spill thousands of false info and lies in very creative way , so people believing you !
Ragnaros where any mana user will randomly get hit by Hammer of Ragnaros, causing a knockback to any player within 20 yards of the Paladin. Anyone that has done Ragnaros will know how little space you already have in the tank zone on this boss. Having an additional positional requirement for offtanks just adds unecessary risk.
You don't need any special spot , you already have a spot where Tanks are sitting and NOBODY stay there next to them , so nobody is getting affected by Hammer of Ragnaros, unless you are noob and have no fucking clue where Tank position suppose to be.
(Time to Education) : 
/revision/latest?cb=20060918190951
Now , let me educate you that Fire Resistance Gear do cause knockbacks to resist , which mean you have 75% chance to resist (nearly full time) all of the Knockbacks!
There's also the obvious lack of defensive cooldowns when something does go wrong.
That's not true , Improved LoH and Bubble is defensive cd , Imp LoH provide you 30% more Armor for 2 minutes, Bubble using /macro for instant removal = removes all deadly debuffs which are 100% dead for Warriors!
Shield Wall is amazing to get through a tough spot. Last Stand is also a great oh-crap button, and Warriors have access to Life Giving Gem. The only real defensive cooldown available to Paladins will be Glyph of Deflection, which is a trinket dropping from Sapphiron. But that is so late in the game that at which point, who cares.
Nice cheap shots , you even mention the Paladin oh-crap buttons ,but you dodge them like no tomorrow.
Improved Lay on Hand for Paladin = 30% more Armor for 2 minutes + maximum HP filled + some mana if you have 0 mana + huge amount of aggro.
VS
Shield Wall = 75% damage reduction for few seconds , nothing else!
Bubble for Paladin = Immune to all sources of damage + you can /macro instant remove to clear all deadly debuffs.
VS
Last Stand = Increased HP Pool = Still you can die very easy and you are still vulnerable of Attacks
Life Giving Gem is Trinket that you need to obtain from BWL, not personal Skill , it work same as Last Stand.
VS
Glyph of Deflection = Huge amount of Block and Blocked damage , on top of that it does scale with Paladin Talent where Block Value is increased by 30% = HUGE AMOUNT OF DAMAGE REDUCTION.
And I know Duki will come back to argue that Shield Wall is not as good as having Lay on Hands, as the armor buff from lay on hands last 2 min. He always argue this point whenever it's brought up, but it's a nonsensical argument. I dont dispute Lay on Hands being good, but not only is it nowhere close to the 75% damage reduction provided by Shield Wall, but Lay on Hands can also be cast on other players. So really a Warrior will have both buffs.
Shield Wall is amazing, but it does last for few seconds and it is selfish , Improved Lay on Hand last for 2 minutes and can be used on everyone!
Now since you brought this into a question = Why would i use 4 Warrior Tanks in Raid , where only 1 Shield Wall is going to be used (Main Tank) and where i can get 3 Improved lay on hands instead by other 3 Tanks (Who are going to be in Raid instead of Warrior) !?
So having more than 1 Warrior Tank in Raid = 0 Benefits by extra Shield Walls , having more than 1 Protection Paladin in Raid = huge benefits by extra Improved Lay on Hands!
Straight your facts before you spill nonsense.
Bubble is nice and all to remove certain debuffs, but there's not a lot of bosses where this is truly useful.
It's not used only for debuffs, but also for deadly AoE moves , helpful situations like removing Crowd Control effects on Tank etc.
Example Hakkar = being mind controled = Bubble removes it , Jin'Do = beinging mind controlled = Bubble removes it , Neffarian Fear = Bubble removes it , KT Mindcontrol = Bubble removes it , Sapphiron Air Phase bomb = Bubble causes you to be immune etc etc , i can count until tomorrow!
I apologize if this went on and on forever, and even though my post might sound very negative, I am passionate about Paladin tanks. I love playing one, and i think they have their use. They are certainly a good class for 5man. And they can do well in raids like ZG.
It's not the issue that you are being negative, it's that you spill shit loads of missinformation and lies about Paladins and how they work.
I don't dispute the negative aspects , but your intentions here are not to be negative or to sound negative , your sole intentions here are to shit on Paladin Protection !
But at the end of the day, there is nothing a Paladin can tank that a Warrior or Druid cannot tank better.Perhaps the only exception in the entire game would be Heigan, where having Exorcism as a range pickup ability will put them at a slight advantage.
Even vice versa , i can count until tomorrow fights where Paladin Tank is better than Warrior or Druid Tank!
Paladins have great AoE threat, but their problem is they will always require the raid to work around their weaknesses to make it work, which means the raid overall will suffer from lower DPS, and from having to use debuff slots and class compositions to support the tank rather than focusing those efforts on getting faster, smoother, clear times.
Paladins indeed are going to make faster smoother and clearer run with faster times! So why would i use Warrior 2nd-3rd-4th Tank and not Paladin which is 10 times better than Warrior during Trash Clearing etc.
A Warrior will always have a higher health pool, higher armor, higher threat output than a Paladin.
Higher health pool yes , higher armor no = both are going to be armor cap , Paladins are better on threat output than a Warrior and that's fact!
I know Duki claimed that damage values are off on private servers, and that bosses do 3-4x as much damage. This is obviously nonsense as you can go recheck any old raiding video to see the numbers more or less match the damage values on private servers. Some comparisons I have done myself show a difference of 10-15% higher damage on private servers compared to Vanilla but without knowing the exact buffs, debuffs, build and gear used in the old videos it's difficult to say for certain.
In any case, this will have an almost negligible impact on rage generation. It will make a much smaller difference than SoR not proccing Judgement of Wisdom like on private servers f.ex.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPFEdkX_WY8
Footage from Beta Library Tanking at level 40 with poor Gear, mobs does 35-50 damage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWDqaOGWVME
This is me Nostalrius/Elysium/Lighthope Tanking at level 40 with good Gear, mobs does 100-120 damage.
Nothing better than pure Evidence.
In either case, bosses having 9% additional Parry in Classic will not really affect the outcome. If anything it just means Warriors pull even further ahead as their higher health pool and armor lets them more easily soak up the extra damage from hasted parries. Weapon skill also become an option for Warrior tanks in Classic.
Or the case you forget to mention :
Parry Haste is going to swallow your Shield Block tick much faster and with higher chance than a Paladin Holy Shield which can have Parry/Dodge in between.
This causes Warrior to be vulnerable on Crushing Blows and Crits if not Def capped!
However I think we have the responsibility to make sure players go into Classic with correct and factual information.
Exactly what i am doing , i bring evidence for my claims and everything , so they can see correct and factual information .
What you do = Words,Criticising with words, No Evidence , No Sources to backup your claims , denigrating the Class only , Lies and Missinformation!
Going around telling everyone that Paladins are the best tanks in the game when there's not a shred of evidence supporting this is not great.
I NEVER EVER SAID THAT!
Instead , it's you who put words in my mouth in order to justify own propaganda!
https://barrens.chat/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1655&start=50
I never said "Paladin is best Tank" , i always been telling that All Tanks are equal , but in diverse ways and do the same thing different way only.
All it will lead to is a bunch of players rolling Paladin, leveling to 60 and then quitting when they realize they were lied to all along, and I think its incredibly selfish to do this out of some inability to admit flaws with the spec you love.
I tell reality , but i never dare to force anyone to tell anyone to play Protection Paladin , who am i to tell what people should play or want to play?!
Unlike you i am telling the truth and how things work , not lying , but what people decide to play is their own Decisions!
Each decision bring own risk , since you forget to mention that Warrior Tanks are way too much and everyone still have a risk to not be invited into Raiding Guild once they realize the Tank spots are full! So we are in same boat with risks , but what people are going to decide it's not up to you or me to tell them what they want to choose ,it's up to them!
If you passionately want to play Paladin tank I say go for it. Just be aware that its going to be a constant uphill battle,
fearmongering , this is what you come out with , let the fuck people play what they want , stop using your propaganda once for all and be here to provide helpful hints and tips to those who really want to play , not to fear them of what they want to play!
Just be aware that its going to be a constant uphill battle, with very expensive consume requirements,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I-Y9vd5mPk&t=3s
Single Elixir used , no Pots , no Runes , no any "expensive consume requirements" ..... Proof that you lie and bring false information!
Psojed already wrote something about it very nice :
https://barrens.chat/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1655&start=75
So, the "extreme minimum" to tank raid bosses is apparently a Flask, four Elixir-type consumables, 16 stamina food, full stack of Runes and Major mana potions. Care to explain how was killerduki able to tank raid bosses in his videos NOT using all these listed consumables? For example his Magmadar video, where he's using a single elixir from the list, no flask, no other consumables, no potion, no dark rune.
I think players should pick whatever spec they want to play in Classic. There's no point playing something you dont find enjoyable and ultimately we all play the game for fun.
If you passionately want to play Paladin tank I say go for it. Just be aware that its going to be a constant uphill battle
I'm just gonna emphasize these two quotes for the lazy people out here :)
Thanks a lot for your insight.
You are right
That's the Irony unfortunately :( .
Guys, I've had my own share of arguments with killerduki back in 2016 when I was a tester at Kronos, so I know what it is like to argue with him. However, the simple solution is to state the facts, prove what is wrong and ignore any further mentions of things that were already proven wrong. For now, I'd love if you guys could ignore duki for a moment, and focus on what this thread is really about.
Engaging with this in any serious manner is a fools errand and will lead nowhere as he will just keep on requesting evidence, and then ignore any evidence that actually gets posted over and over until everyone tire of discussing with him.
Hello Holyfrog. The issue here is that before the whole shouting match between duki and the opposition of paladin tanking started, there was no evidence to support the claims of the opposition. I asked for several examples of the mentioned Paladin shortcomings, like the mana issues and the consumable dependency, but I was never given a reply.
Holy Damage is subject to partial resists due to bosses having 15 Holy Resistance from being 3 levels higher. Even though Holy Resist as a stat does not exists, all spells can still resist partially or binary against higher level targets. There is no way to gear around this.
Partial resists apply to at least:
* Seal of Righteousness
* Judgement of Righteousness
* Consecration
* Retribution Aura (I believe this one has binary resist)
It probably also applies to Exorcism and Holy Wrath, and possibly Holy Shield. This means a net decrease in threat of the Paladin. The difference is not major over the course of a fight, but it can lead to a higher probability of a bad luck scenario in which spells partially resist during the initial pull of the boss, possibly leading to someone overaggroing with no Taunt to get the boss back.
It applies to almost any spell. For example Seal of Command, which behaves in every possible way as a melee ability would - being dodgeable, having 2x crit dmg, using melee hit chance, etc. - will also get partially resisted because of level difference.
However, if a warrior misses his first attack, the effect is the same as if a Palatank's first attack is fully resisted. I believe those are identical conditions for any tanking class. Warrior's attacks can also be dodged and parried. Palatank's spells cannot be dodged or parried. Well, technically SoR can, because it procs from auto attacks. I believe having partial and full resists more than counters the possible threat loss when compared to a Warrior's threat loss from dodges and parries. If you're up to it, you can do some number crunching on Threat loss from Warrior's dodges and parries vs. Palatank's Seal dodges/parries and partial and full resists from his other spells, but without numbers I'd say this doesn't make Palatanks inferior.
The idea of someone overaggroing requires overcoming the tank's initial aggro on pull + 110% of tank's current threat (for melee, 130% of tank's current threat for ranged), so in reality that only happens with a very early attack that also crits. In other words, we're talking about a very rare case. A case which can easily be mitigated by simply having the raid to wait a few seconds before the DPS starts - another common tactic which is NOT limited just to Palatanks.
Finally, please remember that you're in a raid environment, you communitace with other people in the raid in real time. It's very common that for example a Taunt is resisted, the tank announces it to the raid, and off-tanks retake the mobs. The same can and should be done in the case of a failed pull or early overaggro.
Additionally, Seal of Righteousness does not trigger Judgement of Wisdom in Classic. This means our mana regen contribution from Judgement of Wisdom is cut in half, leading to further lower our already strained mana pool.
Source?
JoWisdom is triggering from any melee hit and any spell hit from the whole raid, so not triggering from seal hits sounds like a bug. But you're the first person who says that it doesn't trigger from it. AFAIK Theloras and other spelladins tested SoR a lot, and I believe the only thing that wasn't triggering from SoR was Shadow Oil.
Prot Paladins do suffer from a lot of other issues though. The first and most obvious is lack of a taunt ability. Some bosses straight up require a taunt in raids. Firemaw, Ebonroc, Flamegor, Fankriss and Four Horsemen. These bosses will be either extremely difficult without a taunt, or straight up undoable. On other bosses a taunt is not required, but a huge asset. Examples would be Sartura and C'Thun Giant Claw Tentacles.
Apart from this, more or less every trash mob in the game can be taunted, and with the amount of trash that exists within each raid I can guarantee you there will be times where a taunt is needed. Thats just the reality of the game. People cannot play perfectly forever.
While this may be true, don't forget that any given raid will also have Warriors capable of using Taunt. Unless you're some special raid leader who wants to build a raid with absolutely no Taunt present, this shouldn't pose any significant problem. I don't know about you guys, but if a Palatank cannot tank one or two specific bosses because Blizzard didn't give him a Taunt, it doesn't mean that they shouldn't tank any boss EVER, or that they cannot be good at tanking.
We also suffer greatly from a lack of gear itemized for us. Warriors get 3 full tier sets for tanking, with one pseudo tank set ( Conqueror ) that also happens to have pieces that are superior for threat generation while also providing defensive stats.
Paladins have no such gear. We are instead forced to pick up off-pieces, most of the time worse itemized than the Warrior tier pieces. This is on top of our already much lower base health, and often the pieces that are Best in Slot is several tiers behind Warriors, meaning we not only have much lower health than Warriors, we also have lower Armor, and Warriors have 10% additional damage reduction from Defensive Stance.
This problem gets even worse when you consider that a lot of gear Warriors can use have both Offensive and Defensive stats. Conqueror f.ex have hit, agi, str, defense and high stam. Because Warriors use physical stats to increase their threat generation they can often find all the stats they need in the same piece. When they cannot, the physical DPS gear they can equip often have very high stamina to begin with.
This is true and should be emphasized as the main downsides of a Palatank - lack of specialized tanking gear and no innate 10% damage reduction. Not things like missing taunt or unproven consumable reliability.
Paladin threat is not based on physical damage however. It's mostly based on spells. This means our threat scales with Spellpower, and is limited by mana. Spellpower items typically have much lower stamina, and they never have mitigation stats. We also have absolutely terrible spell coefficients. SoR damage gets increased by 10% of our Spellpower, Holy Shield by 5% per Block. Consecration is 4% per tick. Even with very high levels of spellpower the threat scaling is just really poor compared to what a Warrior and Druid can pull by taking an equal loss in mitgation.
This is wrong. Tier sets for Palatanks are used merely as replacement for Deathbone gear. The reason is actually high armor and Stamina, not spell damage. Palatanks use Tier set pieces without avoidance stats, because there are no better options to choose from. The good off-set pieces that Palatanks can use become available only after AQ40 is raided, which is nearly at the end of a Tank's raiding career. The other option is using Deathbone set in AQ (which you still have to use there btw.). Again, this issue stems from the lack of itemization, not from having "terrible spell coefficients". Palatanks aren't actually forced to use spell damage armor gear to maintain threat in raids.
Requiring Judgement of the Crusader and Judgement of Wisdom to both always be maintained on the boss is also an obvious downside as the Prot can only maintain one of these by himself, meaning you rely on either a Ret Pala or Holy Pala to provide and keep up the other Judgement.
Holy paladins often spec into Lasting Judgement to be able to provide JoW for the raid. The reason is mana longevity for progression and faster clears. I don't see a problem here. Having a Ret pala in your group as Tankadin greatly boosts your threat generation thanks to the Sanctity Aura (+10% holy dmg). That being said, JoW can be replaced by consumables.
Another big problem the class face is that unlike a Warrior, we have Mana. In order to maintain a high threat rotation you rely on using Major Mana Potion on cooldown. This means our potion cooldown is used up by mana pots, and we cannot maintain a Greater Stoneshield Potion for an additional 2000 Armor like a Warrior can.
This potion is what enables Warriors to go Dualwield for tanking, putting their threat output on the same level as a Druid with Manual Crowd Pummelers and ensuring the raid group can clear the dungeon fast and efficiently.
This is also wrong. Firstly, the ability to tank a raid boss without consumables usage was already showcased previously.
Secondly, even if Palatanks needed to drink mana potions on cooldown, your whole Stoneshield Potion vs. Mana Potion argument is moot, as Palatank never loses the benefits of his shield.
Warrior's total armor would be smaller, because even Draconian Deflector has more armor than a Stoneshield potion. It is the drawback of a Warrior. His TPS is capped, and you need to trade avoidance and armor from the shield for more TPS. Palatanks don't do that. Stoneshield Potion is used by Warriors to mitigate the armor lost by NOT using a Shield or not using Defensive stance. In other words, this is additional 2000 armor for the Paladin.
Having mana also puts the Paladin at a severe disadvantage for certain bosses that have mechanics involving mana. Some examples are Vaelastrasz where Burning Adrenaline can prematurely target the Paladin tank, or Ragnaros where any mana user will randomly get hit by Hammer of Ragnaros, causing a knockback to any player within 20 yards of the Paladin. Anyone that has done Ragnaros will know how little space you already have in the tank zone on this boss. Having an additional positional requirement for offtanks just adds unecessary risk.
I got hit by Hammer of Rag several times as Ret paladin. In a group of melees. It never caused any serious issues for the raid.
Getting randomly targeted by Burning Adrenaline is not a disadvantage of the Palatank or Pala class, it is simply one of the fight mechanics. The same way some fights are not melee-friendly, some fights are not manauser-friendly. But you can still do it.
There's also the obvious lack of defensive cooldowns when something does go wrong. Shield Wall is amazing to get through a tough spot. Last Stand is also a great oh-crap button, and Warriors have access to Life Giving Gem. The only real defensive cooldown available to Paladins will be Glyph of Deflection, which is a trinket dropping from Sapphiron. But that is so late in the game that at which point, who cares.
And I know Duki will come back to argue that Shield Wall is not as good as having Lay on Hands, as the armor buff from lay on hands last 2 min. He always argue this point whenever it's brought up, but it's a nonsensical argument. I dont dispute Lay on Hands being good, but not only is it nowhere close to the 75% damage reduction provided by Shield Wall, but Lay on Hands can also be cast on other players. So really a Warrior will have both buffs.
Bubble is nice and all to remove certain debuffs, but there's not a lot of bosses where this is truly useful.
Glyph of Deflection isn't a Paladin-specific ability. Same as the trinket. If we're talking trinkets, then Palatanks can instead use trinkets which greatly boost their TPS generation.
Paladins have Divine Shield, Lay on Hands and Blessing of Protection. Lay on Hands isn't about the armor (Tankadin shouldn't even spec into the armor talent, doh!), but about the fact that it's an instant 100% full heal. Unlike Last Stand, which is temporary % increase and is removed after the duration ends.
Paladins have great AoE threat, but their problem is they will always require the raid to work around their weaknesses to make it work, which means the raid overall will suffer from lower DPS, and from having to use debuff slots and class compositions to support the tank rather than focusing those efforts on getting faster, smoother, clear times.
Yet you have never proven that raid has to work around a Palatank's weakness. Nor did the people before you. This is just made-up bullshit, sorry.
A Warrior will always have a higher health pool, higher armor, higher threat output than a Paladin.
Health - True, because of lacking Palatank itemization.
Armor - False, you mentioned dual-wielding Warrior for TPS generation.
Threat - False, it is your assumption that Paladin cannot generate more TPS than a Warrior. Prove it.
There's also strong evidence that bosses in Classic will have 0 armor after debuffs are applied which will greatly increase the threat produced by physical DPS in raids. This armor reduction also scale better for Warriors than for Paladins, and on top of the other nerfs to the Paladin class compared with private servers, this will make Paladins a suboptimal choice for any guild looking to progress through the content as the gap between Warriors and Paladins will increase even further than on private servers.
Source?
What nerfs? There are no nerfs between classic and private servers. I'm talking classic Palatank here. Not some peenix bullshit with wotlk AP scaling or similar PS nonsense.
And how exactly does armor being reduced to 0 or not matter to Paladins? Palatanks ignore armor, holy damage, remember?
I know Duki claimed that damage values are off on private servers, and that bosses do 3-4x as much damage. This is obviously nonsense as you can go recheck any old raiding video to see the numbers more or less match the damage values on private servers. Some comparisons I have done myself show a difference of 10-15% higher damage on private servers compared to Vanilla but without knowing the exact buffs, debuffs, build and gear used in the old videos it's difficult to say for certain.
Buffs/debuffs that have an effect on damage taken are visible on the tank. The only debuff that comes to mind which is on the boss is Curse of Recklessness and that wasn't a commonly used debuff.
In any case, this will have an almost negligible impact on rage generation. It will make a much smaller difference than SoR not proccing Judgement of Wisdom like on private servers f.ex.
In either case, bosses having 9% additional Parry in Classic will not really affect the outcome. If anything it just means Warriors pull even further ahead as their higher health pool and armor lets them more easily soak up the extra damage from hasted parries. Weapon skill also become an option for Warrior tanks in Classic.
Rage generation is the most commonly bugged thing on private servers AFAIK. And 9% smaller chance to hit a boss is a pretty big deal if you ask me.
However I think we have the responsibility to make sure players go into Classic with correct and factual information. Going around telling everyone that Paladins are the best tanks in the game when there's not a shred of evidence supporting this is not great. All it will lead to is a bunch of players rolling Paladin, leveling to 60 and then quitting when they realize they were lied to all along, and I think its incredibly selfish to do this out of some inability to admit flaws with the spec you love.
We aren't telling anyone that Paladins are best tanks. So far this thread was all about dismantling the nonsense you guys have made up.
These are the points that are described here as Palatank problems, but they are in fact not problems:
- Mana issues when tanking
- Constant need for drinking after fight
- Lack of Taunt
- Lack of Defensive cooldowns
- Reliance on consumables
- Can't tank raid bosses
- Produces less threat than other tanks