Still as i said Consecration is not our best Single Target threat Ability , it is worse from all and heavy Mana inefficient , this has nothing with SOR Partial Resisting at all!
Sure, it's not the best, nor the most mana efficient. It's still 100+ TPS when used with 100 Spellpower. TPS you sorely need.
My point is that this is not the current private server behaviour for these spells. I'm sure SoR is intentional and meant to act similar to how melee is penalized by glancing, dodge and parry. Because this is not the case on private servers (where Duki's experiences come from) it means Prot will produce less threat in Classic than on these servers.
I see no reason why would SoR be penalized by dodge, parry. It isn't on private servers, and it also isn't on classic beta. If you're looking for an old video, then from the top of my head I know Jamaz uses SoR in his video with reckoning and his SoR is never dodged/parried/missed.
Glancing blows are only a thing for white autoattacks, not for abilities.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QWJkydiB9s
That is the current way it behaves on the Beta. If you find me a video of SoR proccing JoW from some old video ill change my position, but this is the current Beta behaviour of Judgement of Wisdom with SoR.
Theloras is not in the Beta btw. Our Spelladin tests are entirely done on private servers.
I know Theloras isn't in the beta, but apparently some of the spelladins are, and they do the testing on the beta realm. Unless this information was a lie?
I don't think there is any video, but we'll see.
I have never said Paladins cannot tank in raids. But there are bosses that are straight up not doable with a Paladin, or where a Warrior/Druid would be a much better choice. This is contrary to Duki's claim that Paladins can tank every boss in the game.
Do you agree if I say having tanks capable of tanking every boss in a raid is better than having a tank that can only tank some? Unlike a Druid, a Paladin not currently tanking a boss is not capable of producing a lot of DPS, and without Illumination as a talent they will struggle to heal. That leaves swinging Nightfall which for Paladins have about a 40% uptime. A Protwarrior doing the same thing would have a 50% uptime on the debuff.
The thing is, duki has actual experience tanking those bosses, even if just on private servers.
And no, I wouldn't agree. I don't see any benefit from having tanks that can tank everything. It's similar to how you have to take multiple tanks with you into raids for specific encounters, even while some bosses don't require multiple tanks.
As you pointed out, off-duty Warrior tanks have little to do apart from proccing Nightfall. Dunno about Druids and their healing. But Paladins can heal without Illumination just fine. It should be obvious - Illumination is only a mana longevity talent, and doesn't affect healing output. Any paladin can heal damn well by just switching gear. I did exactly that as Ret :)
I disagree. I think Spellpower gear is entirely necessary. A Druid has infinite rage due to their mechanics, so not going to discuss them, but a Warrior gain rage by dealing damage, and by taking damage. Their abilities are only limited to how much rage they can generate, and by equipping more threat gear they will increase both rage from attacking and rage from taking damage.
As a Warrior tank progress through the content they will rarely have rage issues. This is due to the fact that on lower tier content they can dualwield tank, and on higher tier content they currently do not overgear, they will be taking enough damage to sustain their rage regardless.
This is very different from a Paladin tank. Every single threat producing ability of the Paladin is on a cooldown. Judgement is 8/10 seconds, Holy Shield is 10 seconds, Consecration is 8 seconds. No matter how much gear a Paladin gets, their ability to dish out more threat never increases. They can improve the amount of time they are able to sustain a high threat rotation, but they will never produce more threat as they gear up, unless they go for spellpower.
This means a Paladin in full best in slot AQ40/Naxxramas gear will produce the exact same amount of threat as a Paladin wearing full green gear from 5mans. Only by increasing spellpower, or by having a weapon such as Thunderfury (super unrealistic) will the threat go up.
Well, you said it yourself - it's obvious that spellpower increases the threat generation. Your default gear - the Tank gear - WILL include spell damage from T2 and T2,5 pieces, which are also spell damage gear. Because there is no better gear to use. The itemization is just that bad outside of Warrior Tier sets.
I don't know what did you try to say with all the cooldowns or how does this relate to Warriors or Druids being able to generate rage. If you're comparing resource generation, then for Warriors there are:
- Their own abilities
- Rage consumable (2min CD)
- Taking damage
- Dealing damage
For Paladins, there are:
- Their own abilities (BoW)
- Mana consumable (2min CD)
- Separate Mana consumable (Runes)
- Dealing damage (JoW)
- Mana/MP5 trinkets
- MP5 consumables (food, elixirs)
- Abilities of others in the raid (Innervate)
- Gimmicks ( https://classic.wowhead.com/item=18637 can be used by any engineer in the raid )
From the cooldowns point of view, all tanks are limited by the global cooldown for using their abilities. But Consecration has 8 second duration, Holy Shield generates threat on blocks and also has duration, Seal has a duration. So the only ability that is really affected by the cooldown in terms of TPS is Judgement, and Judgement isn't affected by GCD.
This brings us to the major difference in threat generation. Warrior and Druid can only generate Threat from autoattack and using one ability at a time. You can't be using for example Sunder Armor and Shield Slam both at the same moment. So you're trying to spend all your Rage as fast as you can, but you're limited by GCD (and your ability to generate Rage).
Paladin is limited by his mana, but not really by GCD, because most of his spells are in effect even during the GCD. Meaning, Palatank can be using Consecration, Holy Shield, Seal of Righteousness at the same time. They are active and do their thing while you do something else - use Judgement for example. If Paladin abilities didn't have cooldowns, you could run around and place several Consecrations, generating HUGE amounts of threat, while still generating standard threat from everything else. Well, assuming you would have enough mana to do that :mrgreen:
So just so its clear. A Paladin not stacking Spellpower will NEVER be able to hold aggro against a raid with optimal debuff usage, proper consumes and who all know what they are doing. They just wont.
Sorry, but nothing of what was said above proves that Paladin cannot hold aggro against a raid with optimal debuff usage. And you will be stacking spell damage - just not from all your gear. Greater Arcane Elixir + spelldmg oil + spelldmg enchant on a spelldamage weapon should be enough.
And this bring me back to my previous point, which is that Spellpower gear is not that well itemized for tanking. Your T1 is garbage. Doesnt help tanking in any way. That leaves T2 and T2.5 as your threat gear. The problem is both these sets have considerably lower stamina than a Warrior's tier sets. Where a Warrior would be using Tier sets mixed with offensive offpieces (also with high stamina) a Paladin need to use T2 and T2.5 in his/her gear, and rely on defensive mitigation offpieces, which again typically either have the same or lower stamina than plate DPS gear a Warrior can tank would be using.
I believe we have already established that Palatanks have lower health pool than Warriors, and that itemization is the main downside to Palatanking.
For example, your choice of wrists in Phase 1 will be https://classic.wowhead.com/item=12550 or https://classic.wowhead.com/item=16857 until Dire Maul opens with https://classic.wowhead.com/item=18754 in P2 and then https://classic.wowhead.com/item=16951 in P3. An obvious pick for T2. As stated above, parts of T2 and T2,5 will be parts of your Tank gear, not parts of a separate Threat gear, simply because there isn't really anything else to tank with.
There's some bosses you dont want Judgement of Wisdom. Especially in MC and BWL there's barely any fights apart from Nef where you would want one. You also cannot rely on a Holy Paladin always being able to keep up the Judgement.
I agree with you a Retpala is great to have in the group of the Protpala, but it's a huge obvious disadvantage regardless. Instead of your tank group being Tank, Tank, Tank, Warlock, Paladin, you now need two tank groups so the Paladin tank can get both Sanctity Aura, Devotion Aura and Blood Pact.
Ok, please explain why you don't want JoW? :mrgreen:
Ok, count with me. :mrgreen: You have 3 tanks, 1 paladin, 1 warlock.
1 tank = Protadin, using Devotion aura.
2 tanks are Warriors.
Paladin is ret, giving Sanctity.
Warlock is warlock as usual. 1 + 2 + 1 +1 = 5, one group, no special needs. All tanks get stamina from imp and Devo aura. Where's the problem?
This also mean the second tank group need 3 friggin Paladins (The Prot needs Ret aura too), and you will need the Ret to take a DPS loss from not being in another stacked melee group.
Who says prot needs ret aura? :lol:
Not true. I am sorry, but you really need this mana regeneration to function. A Protpala typically have under 3000 mana. You cannot sustain your threat unless you get every last piece of mana regen you can. Especially true when you get into Naxxramas and you need to incorporate Exorcism into your rotation.
Well, this brings us back to good old duki and me vs. statements...
About holding threat... You remember the Magmadar video being thrown around a lot? There's no JoW, and there's no mana potion used, yet he held threat. How is that possible?
About Exorcism in your rotation... So a Paladin is able to maintank MC, BWL and AQ40, but not Naxxramas unless he starts using Exorcism, correct? :lol:
You are not thinking about this the right way. Paladins require Mana Potions just to produce their regular standard threat rotation.
No, they don't. It's been shown in the Magmadar video. Also for Linguine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy)
When two parties are in a discussion and one makes a claim that the other disputes, the one who makes the claim typically has a burden of proof to justify or substantiate that claim especially when it challenges a perceived status quo.
I believe we can all agree that the standard, or the status quo, is NOT chugging manapots on cooldown. You have just claimed that Paladins need to chug manapots to be able to generate a standard threat rotation. That is why this is your claim to prove. Holyfrog
A Protpala chugging mana pots can probably produce similar threat to a full Protection Warrior, but in this case the Protwarrior have the advantage of a higher base armor from being able to use better itemized gear in the first place, on top of 2000 armor from the pot, on top of 10% damage reduction from def stance.
Again, you are claiming that a Palatank chugging manapots cannot produce more threat than a Warrior. I believe the general consensus was that Paladins have good threat, that's why they're good for AoE tanking, unlike Warriors! But you haven't provided any proof.
When you say Paladins have 2000 additional armor, you are not being entire honest in your comparison.
Where your dualwield argument fails is that you assume Dualwield tanking is required to produce the same TPS as a Paladin tank. It's not. Dualwield tanking is used to push your threat ceiling much much higher, to allow for DPS to go all out and reduce clear times and kill times of the raids and bosses. Dualwield is not required, but it's a major advantage that Paladins dont have an equivalent to.
Alright, I see it this way.
First, you prove that Paladins cannot produce more threat than Warriors, as stated above. A video comparison would be best. Then we can start comparing the Standard Tankadin with Dual-wielding Tank Warr.
There is simply never a case where a Protpaladin have higher armor than a Warrior UNLESS you are comparing a Protpala to a Dualwield Warrior, but thats not a fair comparison as the threat ceiling of a DW Warrior is miles beyond what a Paladin is capable of producing. If your guild is going for lightning fast killspeeds you will not be running a Protpala.
Well, YOU started comparing DW Tank to Palatank. And it was also YOU who specifically compared the armor totals. Your reasoning was that Paladins need to use Mana pots to maintain "high threat rotation", so they cannot chug Stoneshield pots, while Warrior can chug Stoneshield pots while DW tanking. The way I see it, you simply forgot that Paladins don't lose armor from unequipping shield.
Either way, this comparison only makes sense if you agree that Paladins chugging mana pots are able to match DW Tanks in threat, because only then it makes sense to compare their stats. In your previous paragraph, you said that paladins cannot produce more threat than a Warrior and that Palatanks need to chug manapots to produce "standard threat" of a standard Warrior tank. So prove that, then we can talk DW Tank vs. Palatank :wink:
The exact same thing applies to a Warrior. They can also use a wide variety of threat trinkets. HoJ, Blackhand's Breadth, DFT, Kiss of the Spider, etc.
The difference here is Paladins have NO on demand damage mitigation abilities available to them outside of Glyph of Deflection.
A trinket is not a CLASS ABILITY. You were comparing TRINKET USAGE to CLASS ABILITY. That's bullshit. Either we compare trinkets, or we compare abilities, not both mingled together.
If you compare haste trinkets, then Warrior gets no haste trinket until P6, whereas Paladin gets one in P3.
If you compare stat boosts, then 2% crit is a REALLY crappy trinket. And if you compare DFT, compare to SP trinkets.
Yes, Paladins don't have on demand mitigation abilities. In TBC, Tankadins also had NO on demand damage mitigation abilities, yet they were really good.
Btw, a 100% heal wont help you live through Maexxna web wrap making the final web wrap entirely RNG compared to simply using Shield Wall and running no risk of the tank dying. Chromaggus getting frenzied while the Hunter is stunned from bronze affilction is also a really good time for Shield Wall, or multiple other scenarios where incoming damage is temporarily high or the healers are not able to heal for whatever reason such as being out of range on Ouro, or someone dying at a bad time or during enrage of Huhuran. Shield Wall is simply much much better than anything a Paladin can bring as it can almost entirely negate something going wrong by providing plenty time for the raid to recover. Lay on Hands will heal you up once, then you keep taking full damage.
I'm pretty sure that a 100% heal will certainly help in either of these situations you mentioned. It might not save you, but the same can be said for Shield Wall. It always depends on your healers, yes? No disputing that Shield Wall is a great ability to have.
I already explained this and part of the explanation is even in then quote you linked. You require an extra debuff slot ( crusader ), you require someone to pull for you ( Grenades have slow travel times ). You require really weird group compositions such as needing a Retpaladin AND another Holypaladin in you group as well as a second SM/Ruin warlock for Blood Pact instead of that Warlock being able to go DS/Ruin for more DPS. So yes, the raid very much has to work around your weaknesses.
Have you actually raided a a Paladin?
- Requiring one debuff slot makes your spec weak? :neutral: I see. Then I guess there are a lot of "weak" specs out there...
- You don't require anyone to pull for you. This was also one of the things I asked previously. Nobody replied.
- You don't require any specific group composition. I explained it above.
Yes I have. But I'm starting to wonder if you really did raid as one. I don't see how could you describe such nonsense like requiring 2 paladins and 2 warlocks with Tankading in the tank group.
Hammer of Ragnaros - Ranged Knockback and Damage
20–30s cooldown. "By fire be purged!" This attack targets a random player and knocks back all players (excluding the target) within ~20 yards. They are knocked back from the impact point which is at the foot of the target.
And who are "THEM" standing next to tank?! Nobody !
Offtanks.
You want 2, preferrably 3 tanks for Ragnaros. Healers need to be in range, which means the area these offtanks stand on will be very small. Because its not possible to guarantee you do not resist the melee range knockback, there will be times when you as a Paladin tank gets knocked back, and you need to run back into range with the boss.
During this run-in it's unavoidable that you need to run past the healers, and past the other two tanks. If you were to get a Hammer of Ragnaros right as this occured, and you happen to not resist said Hammer of Ragnaros you will end up knocking back half the tank healers, or worse, both other offtanks, leaving your raid with only one tank in melee range. If you then were to die, or eat another knockback, this likely means a wipe as Ragnaros now starts oneshotting casters one by one until some tank can get back into melee range.
Ragnaros very much can be done as a Paladin tank. But please do not say its easier or just as easy with a Paladin tank because that is simply flat out false. Having more mana users near the melee or tanks means your raid is subjected to more RNG than if you were to use a Warrior or Druid.
I am not going to bother addressing this dumb Shield Wall argument any further btw, so please stop posting about it.
All I am going to say about it is that a Warrior tank will ALWAYS have Lay on Hands when needed in addition to Shield Wall. A Paladin cannot ever have both.
I also have no idea why you think using Shield Wall is selfish. It's a cooldown that is there for you to use. You absolutely want to use it if you need it. Besides, if you need multiple Shield Walls you can just have another warrior Taunt (Hey, remember this little spell?) and then use another Shield Wall.
Obviously this does not work on every boss, but works on some. If you get Time Lapse on Chromaggus f.ex you can just have the off-tank use Shield Wall as well. There's nothing selfish about Shield Wall. In an case, it's dumb fucking argument, because Lay on Hands can be cast on other players.
What you are actually looking at from a mitigation perspective is the following:
Warrior - Defensive Stance, Lay on Hands, Shield Wall
Paladin - Lay on Hands
So please dont insult our intelligence by arguing this point further.
You want 2, preferrably 3 tanks for Ragnaros. Healers need to be in range, which means the area these offtanks stand on will be very small. Because its not possible to guarantee you do not resist the melee range knockback, there will be times when you as a Paladin tank gets knocked back, and you need to run back into range with the boss.
During this run-in it's unavoidable that you need to run past the healers, and past the other two tanks. If you were to get a Hammer of Ragnaros right as this occured, and you happen to not resist said Hammer of Ragnaros you will end up knocking back half the tank healers, or worse, both other offtanks, leaving your raid with only one tank in melee range. If you then were to die, or eat another knockback, this likely means a wipe as Ragnaros now starts oneshotting casters one by one until some tank can get back into melee range.
As i said , even YOU eating it ,the other Tanks are going to Resist the knockback , since it is resistable by Fire Resistance ....
If Paladin Tank gets knocked back , usually you don't eat Hammers during that period , because sitting next or close to Healers is much further away than 20 Yards, that mean you are not going to be affected by Hammers in that case!
I also have no idea why you think using Shield Wall is selfish. It's a cooldown that is there for you to use. You absolutely want to use it if you need it. Besides, if you need multiple Shield Walls you can just have another warrior Taunt (Hey, remember this little spell?) and then use another Shield Wall.
Shield Wall is selfish , because you DONT use it on others to help them , you only use it for your OWN!
Taunt?! Right = Chromaggus = Immune Taunt , Maexxna = Immune Taunt = All those Bosses who really do require Shield Walls during Enrages!
My point is that this is not the current private server behaviour for these spells. I'm sure SoR is intentional and meant to act similar to how melee is penalized by glancing, dodge and parry. Because this is not the case on private servers (where Duki's experiences come from) it means Prot will produce less threat in Classic than on these servers.
I see no reason why would SoR be penalized by dodge, parry. It isn't on private servers, and it also isn't on classic beta. If you're looking for an old video, then from the top of my head I know Jamaz uses SoR in his video with reckoning and his SoR is never dodged/parried/missed.
He says that SoR is given a penalty similar to how melee is given a penalty. Not that it is given the same penalty.
It is not affected by dodge or parry, but it has it's own penalty built in instead.
Oh you're right, I misread it.
But I think the reply will be similar, I see no reason why would specifically SoR get penalized.
Also for @Linguine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of ... hilosophy)
When two parties are in a discussion and one makes a claim that the other disputes, the one who makes the claim typically has a burden of proof to justify or substantiate that claim especially when it challenges a perceived status quo.
I believe we can all agree that the standard, or the status quo, is NOT chugging manapots on cooldown. You have just claimed that Paladins need to chug manapots to be able to generate a standard threat rotation. That is why this is your claim to prove.
No, Psojed, the status quo is not specifically about mana pots, nor is your position the status quo. The status quo is that Warrior tanks (and Druids) are far superior than Paladin tanks for having an unlimited resource and various other strong abilities, gear, etc. Not needing mana pots is simply part of the package.
You, as the challenger to this with the idea that Paladins also have an unlimited (rather, that they are not limited by their resource) are the one that needs to back up your claim as well as any other claims that break the status quo, which is just about all of them.
You can easily view the status quo by looking at how many Warriors are the Main Tanks of their guilds and raids.
We are both making claims here, but mine is backed by the standard knowledge and consensus of players in WoW.
Status Quo: the existing state of affairs, especially regarding social or political issues.
About holding threat... You remember the Magmadar video being thrown around a lot? There's no JoW, and there's no mana potion used, yet he held threat. How is that possible?
About Exorcism in your rotation... So a Paladin is able to maintank MC, BWL and AQ40, but not Naxxramas unless he starts using Exorcism, correct? :lol:
You are not thinking about this the right way. Paladins require Mana Potions just to produce their regular standard threat rotation.
No, they don't. It's been shown in the Magmadar video.
Please link the Magmadar Video if you're going to hold to it so tightly.
He is wearing https://classic.wowhead.com/item=19019/thunderfury-blessed-blade-of-the-windseeker and AQ gear among other things and I think we can fill in the rest about what happened here on one of the earliest bosses in the game.
Heh. Learn to read I guess? I specifically mention the claim about the requirement of chugging mana pots. It's written in the very part of the post you quoted Linguine. It doesn't mention Warriors or Druids in any way.
From the cooldowns point of view, all tanks are limited by the global cooldown for using their abilities. But Consecration has 8 second duration, Holy Shield generates threat on blocks and also has duration, Seal has a duration. So the only ability that is really affected by the cooldown in terms of TPS is Judgement, and Judgement isn't affected by GCD.
This brings us to the major difference in threat generation. Warrior and Druid can only generate Threat from autoattack and using one ability at a time. You can't be using for example Sunder Armor and Shield Slam both at the same moment. So you're trying to spend all your Rage as fast as you can, but you're limited by GCD (and your ability to generate Rage).
Well no, because when a Warrior starts tanking in preraid blue gear they will not be generating enough rage to use an ability every GCD. As gear progresses, you get more rage generation which increases the frequency of your abilities. At later stages you also start incorporating more Heroic Strikes into your rotation as replacementes for white hits.
A Paladin will never be able to increase the frequency of which you get to use your abilities. That is the main difference.
Holyfrog wrote: ↑5 hours ago
There's some bosses you dont want Judgement of Wisdom. Especially in MC and BWL there's barely any fights apart from Nef where you would want one. You also cannot rely on a Holy Paladin always being able to keep up the Judgement.
I agree with you a Retpala is great to have in the group of the Protpala, but it's a huge obvious disadvantage regardless. Instead of your tank group being Tank, Tank, Tank, Warlock, Paladin, you now need two tank groups so the Paladin tank can get both Sanctity Aura, Devotion Aura and Blood Pact.
Ok, please explain why you don't want JoW?
You are limited to 16 debuff slots in Vanilla. This means that while Judgement of Wisdom is required for a Protection Paladin to keep up the threat rotation, it's uneccessary for the vast majority of content, as caster DPS already have the tools to sustain their mana through longer encounters by using abilities such as Evocation, Mana Gems, Life Tap or even Feigndeath+Drink.
Bringing a Paladin tank means that instead of using say, Gift of Arthas to increase every melee hit done by anyone in the raid by 8 damage, you are now spending the debuff slot to support the Protection Paladin.
Ok, count with me. You have 3 tanks, 1 paladin, 1 warlock.
1 tank = Protadin, using Devotion aura.
2 tanks are Warriors.
Paladin is ret, giving Sanctity.
Warlock is warlock as usual. 1 + 2 + 1 +1 = 5, one group, no special needs. All tanks get stamina from imp and Devo aura. Where's the problem?
No, the one Paladin will be Holy to provide Devotion Aura or Fire Resistance aura depending on the encounter. The Protection Paladin also want Sanctity Aura for the 10% increase to Holy Damage which means you are now forced to get two Paladins in the same group as the Protection Paladin as support. This means the tank group can no longer support all three tanks you want to be using for the raid, and you need to make two dedicated tank groups to make the Paladin have all the required tank buffs.
Who says prot needs ret aura?
Ret Aura deals Holy Damage every time you are hit which gets increased by Sanctity Aura and multiplied by Righteous Fury. Not using it is not an option when a Paladins threat is already so far behind other tanks.
About holding threat... You remember the Magmadar video being thrown around a lot? There's no JoW, and there's no mana potion used, yet he held threat. How is that possible?
About Exorcism in your rotation... So a Paladin is able to maintank MC, BWL and AQ40, but not Naxxramas unless he starts using Exorcism, correct?
Did you actually watch the video? It's 2 minute 40 second kill. That is incredibly slow even for 2006 standards. Duki is playing with some of the worst DPS I have ever seen, and this is used as evidence that Prot Paladins can hold aggro. You can look at the DPS meter and divide the difference in damage before and after the boss by 163 seconds (length of the boss)
The Fury Warrior f.ex is doing 270 DPS. You have any idea how dogshit this is? Warriors in preraid should be pulling 500-600+ DPS easily.
As for Exorcism in Naxx. I assumed it was pretty well understood that DPS starts doing more DPS once they get AQ40 and Naxx gear. When DPS starts to produce higher damage, the tank has to produce more TPS to compensate. Thus you need Exorcism.
Holyfrog wrote: ↑5 hours ago
A Protpala chugging mana pots can probably produce similar threat to a full Protection Warrior, but in this case the Protwarrior have the advantage of a higher base armor from being able to use better itemized gear in the first place, on top of 2000 armor from the pot, on top of 10% damage reduction from def stance.
Again, you are claiming that a Palatank chugging manapots cannot produce more threat than a Warrior. I believe the general consensus was that Paladins have good threat, that's why they're good for AoE tanking, unlike Warriors! But you haven't provided any proof.
Who told you the general consensus is that Paladins do good threat? You are being just as dishonest as Duki. You flip it around and pretend as if I am the one that has to provide evidence when we have 15 years of raidlogs to look back on where not a single person can demonstrate Paladins produce the level of threat a Warrior can do.
The burden of proof is on you.
Holyfrog wrote: ↑5 hours ago
There is simply never a case where a Protpaladin have higher armor than a Warrior UNLESS you are comparing a Protpala to a Dualwield Warrior, but thats not a fair comparison as the threat ceiling of a DW Warrior is miles beyond what a Paladin is capable of producing. If your guild is going for lightning fast killspeeds you will not be running a Protpala.
Well, YOU started comparing DW Tank to Palatank. And it was also YOU who specifically compared the armor totals. Your reasoning was that Paladins need to use Mana pots to maintain "high threat rotation", so they cannot chug Stoneshield pots, while Warrior can chug Stoneshield pots while DW tanking. The way I see it, you simply forgot that Paladins don't lose armor from unequipping shield.
Either way, this comparison only makes sense if you agree that Paladins chugging mana pots are able to match DW Tanks in threat, because only then it makes sense to compare their stats. In your previous paragraph, you said that paladins cannot produce more threat than a Warrior and that Palatanks need to chug manapots to produce "standard threat" of a standard Warrior tank. So prove that, then we can talk DW Tank vs. Palatank
What are you talking about? Dualwield is entire irrelevant here. I only brought it up because it's one of the advantages of a Warrior over a Paladin, and Stoneshield Potion bridge the gap between not having a shield and having one.
A Paladin can never use Stoneshield a he/she needs Major Mana Potions to sustain threat. Therefor even if a Warrior is using a Shield, the Warrior still have a 2000 armor advantage over the Paladin. Dualwield was relevant to bring up because a Dualwielding Warrior due to having Def stance wont actually take a noteworthy higher amount of damage than the Paladin tank.
Also again you are flipping the burden of proof. Are you just as bad as Duki. Seriously. It's not my job to prove that something everyone already know to be true, is true. If you truly believe Paladins can output high enough threat that they wont need Major Mana Potions, then prove it. Show me a log of a Paladin tank. Show me a video where DPS isnt garbage. Show me something.
These unsubstantiated outlandish claims are getting really old.
Heh. Learn to read I guess? I specifically mention the claim about the requirement of chugging mana pots. It's written in the very part of the post you quoted @Linguine. It doesn't mention Warriors or Druids in any way.
You came into this thread and disputed my knowledge of the game (which matches the status quo) with your own claim. Learn to logic. It hardly matters what order it was said in, simply that you want to change the status quo and I am comfortable keeping it.
As for the Magmadar Video, I have gone back over it since you were so kind to remind me.
He has no major mana pots on his bar apparently (too poor?) and only one superior mana left. Spends a whole lot of the fight oom, Loses threat to a Warlock once around 1:48, and finally gets mana back around 1:55 when he almost dies and LoH's himself. Loses aggro again at 2:02 for a moment, gets LoH'd AGAIN by someone else at 2:28 because he almost dies yet again (and gets mana), 2:38 someone pulls aggro and almost dies (or did die? hard to tell), before the boss finally dies at 2:48.
For having https://classic.wowhead.com/item=19019/thunderfury-blessed-blade-of-the-windseeker and AQ gear he sure does almost die a lot to Magmadar and loses threat THREE TIMES despite Thunderfury because he is oom. Thunderfury was carrying the threat and he still couldn't.
Edit: Might I add, he loses aggro THREE TIMES to terrible DPS. In fact, it looked like the second person who took aggro was a Ret Paladin.
Well no, because when a Warrior starts tanking in preraid blue gear they will not be generating enough rage to use an ability every GCD. As gear progresses, you get more rage generation which increases the frequency of your abilities. At later stages you also start incorporating more Heroic Strikes into your rotation as replacementes for white hits.
A Paladin will never be able to increase the frequency of which you get to use your abilities. That is the main difference.
Isn't that = Less Gear = More Damage Taken = More Rage , More Gear = Less Damage Taken = Less Rage?!
Well no, because when a Warrior starts tanking in preraid blue gear they will not be generating enough rage to use an ability every GCD. As gear progresses, you get more rage generation which increases the frequency of your abilities. At later stages you also start incorporating more Heroic Strikes into your rotation as replacementes for white hits.
A Paladin will never be able to increase the frequency of which you get to use your abilities. That is the main difference.
Isn't that = Less Gear = More Damage Taken = More Rage , More Gear = Less Damage Taken = Less Rage?!
They get more +hit, more strength, more agility, more crit...
Heh. Learn to read I guess? I specifically mention the claim about the requirement of chugging mana pots. It's written in the very part of the post you quoted @Linguine. It doesn't mention Warriors or Druids in any way.
Are you four years old? Why do you have to be so smug?
You are limited to 16 debuff slots in Vanilla. This means that while Judgement of Wisdom is required for a Protection Paladin to keep up the threat rotation, it's uneccessary for the vast majority of content, as caster DPS already have the tools to sustain their mana through longer encounters by using abilities such as Evocation, Mana Gems, Life Tap or even Feigndeath+Drink.
Bringing a Paladin tank means that instead of using say, Gift of Arthas to increase every melee hit done by anyone in the raid by 8 damage, you are now spending the debuff slot to support the Protection Paladin.
Judgement of Wisdom support = ALL Mages , Warlock , Spriest , Healers (pala/priest/druid) = More DPS By Warlock/Spriest/Mages , More Heal by Healers.
Where is Deep Wounds debuff slot wasting , benefits who ? none!
Heh. Learn to read I guess? I specifically mention the claim about the requirement of chugging mana pots. It's written in the very part of the post you quoted @Linguine. It doesn't mention Warriors or Druids in any way.
Are you four years old? Why do you have to be so smug?
I would say it's "oozing" with "smugness" (or something...else).
I am sure Stfuppercut would agree.