And you specifically requested he did not dualwield.
Requesting to not use some specific "Meme Spec" which is going to destroy main tank like Dual Wield thanks to Parry Haste and because i requested him to sit on the same level as me , doesn't mean i was restricting him from anything.
Good off-tanks stand behind the boss when not actively tanking for this very reason. Parry haste from the offtank dualwielding is not a factor.
It was request where he would do same as i did , otherwise i could have used Shields that scale with SP and torn him apart in regard to threats as Offtank , but instead the TESTS was requested to be in proper DEFENSIVE way!
There is exactly one shield in the entire game with spellpower. Draconian Aegis of the Legion with +20 SP.
That means a 2 damage increase on your SoR, 0.8 damage increase on Consecration, 10 damage increase on Judgement and 1 damage increase on Holy Shield.
Totally enough to "tear apart" a Warrior dualwielding for rage. /s
Here is SKARM himself testing 2Hand Weapon as threat:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zctHC3ePLk
See how he torn apart the Warrior Tank in regards to threat using 2hander Weapon as Paladin. (Despite the fact he didn't even use Judgement of Wisdom for more Mana,so he went oom because he did spam Consecration against single target which is poor threat and heavy mana consume).
He even didn't got Righteous Fury at the end to show mercy toward Warrior Tank even!
Does that change the fact that Warriors are going to be stronger Tanks?! NO , because as DW he wouldn't use his abilities which do scale with Shield Block Value = Lesser Threat he is going to be compare to how he was thanks to Sapphiron Trinket!
Hakkar is pretty buggy on private servers though. I have tanked him as a Druid with MCP's where I was 20% ahead of the next guy on threat, and the boss still would not focus me. You can see this at 3 min 40 sec in the video where Skarm cast Blessing of Protection on himself and the boss keep hitting him.
Hakkar is simply put not a good example of threat for any tank class due to pserver shenanigans. Not to mention the obvious here, which is that Skarm is wearing the Tier 2.5 Avenger set and swinging an 85 DPS twohander from Naxxramas. That's two raid tiers above ZG.
As you can also see in this video, healers have similar level of gear which means Skarm can simply sit there with next to no defense on gear and rely on Reckoning procs. Which is something that's just not realistic as a Paladin if you are doing current content.
It's like playing a gimped version of DW Furyprot without the Defensive stance and additional armor/health.
Does that change the fact that Warriors are going to be stronger Tanks?! NO , because as DW he wouldn't use his abilities which do scale with Shield Block Value = Lesser Threat he is going to be compare to how he was thanks to Sapphiron Trinket!
Not true. Shield Slam scale with 1 damage per block value, which means every block value is something like 1.49 threat. It's not even close to the benefit of putting on a secondary weapon for rage for additional white damage, as well as getting Flurry procs for 30% attack speed, which gives you crazy high use of Heroic Strike. It far outweights the threat benefit from using Shield Slam.
Using Glyph of Deflection will provide you with 235 Block Value for 20 seconds. That's potentially 4 shield slams, each doing 350 additional threat from activating the trinket. Because the trinket has a 2 min cooldown, the trinket adds a total amount of 11.66 Threat per second. A drop in the bucket compared to simply putting on a off-hand to deal more whitedamage and cause more Heroic Strike.
I will admit the trinket does give you nice on demand burst threat. But this is not really necessary unless you are talking about picking up a boss after an aggro-reset, or during a pull. It does not really matter for sustained threat such as in a scenario where an off-tank is trying to keep up with the Maintank on threat.
Does that mean it makes me dependent on consumables ? No.
Evidence as Psojed said is this Video :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I-Y9vd5mPk
No Runes ,No Pots, No JoW , No Innervates = No Consumables dependent!
I have already demonstrated that in an actual raid your DPS would be doing up towards 70-80% more damage. The only reason you were able to succesfully tank this boss without using consumables like Major Mana Potion and Demonic Rune is because of this fact.
Your total TPS in the video is 361.9 (59.000 / 163 seconds). Considering you have a Thunderfury, this is absolutely terrible. Using the previous video posted in this thread of the warrior in preraid bis DPS'ing Patchwerk, and accounting for the fact that there was no execute phase in that video, a full blue preraid geared Warrior with Blessing of Salvation would be doing 400+ TPS which means you would have lost threat.
This number would also just keep climbing as the length of the bossfight decrease due to higher Deathwish and trinket uptime.
If you are going to refuse to address any criticisms regarding that video then please stop posting it.
Pretty weird that Duki is now posting Logical Fallacy infographics.
As for his current claims, he is lying too much now about what he did or didn't say in the clearly linked discord for him to be credible about anything.
Depend on the situation sometime , but 90% of the "Singer Target" i would use SoR for extra threat and JoW for extra Mana regen. I don't need SoW unless it is AoE fight for Max Rank Consecration, because SoW as you can see on previous Holyfrog Video = terrible single target threat.
You do realize I intentionally did not use a Seal so that I would simulate the behaviour of SoR in Classic right? The point of my longevity video was not to demonstrate threat it any way. It was simply a means to demonstrate how long your mana would last with a high threat rotation.
Because SoR on private servers proc Judgement of WIsdom, I could not use this seal for the test. However the mana cost is the same, so by recasting Wisdom right before Judgement it meant I would be spending the same amount of mana as I would if I were swinging SoR in Classic on every auto. By not having a seal active while autoattacking, I would also be regaining the same amount of mana as a Paladin would in Classic.
That was the purpose of the test. The video has nothing at all to do with the actual threat output you produce, as that would require very different conditions.
Pretty weird that Duki is now posting Logical Fallacy infographics.
As for his current claims, he is lying too much now about what he did or didn't say in the clearly linked discord for him to be credible about anything.
Yes, that's why I declare this a dead end. So I'm just gonna say the same thing as Stfuppercut. Can't wait to see this fella run his own guild and main tank trough content as paladin. The whole thing is going to be a huge parody, so at least it will bring us all something to laugh about.
Pretty weird that Duki is now posting Logical Fallacy infographics.
As for his current claims, he is lying too much now about what he did or didn't say in the clearly linked discord for him to be credible about anything.
Yes, that's why I declare this a dead end. So I'm just gonna say the same thing as Stfuppercut. Can't wait to see this fella run his own guild and main tank trough content as paladin. The whole thing is going to be a huge parody, so at least it will bring us all something to laugh about.
At a certain point this becomes a waste of effort, which is how most of his conversations seem to go. He continues to type until everyone else just quits and then he counts that as a win. None of what he is saying moves the conversation forward... I understand being passionate and I understand giving information, but hes linked the same videos a dozen times and repeated the same awful points dozens of times. He's just stuck in a mental loop at this point.
Howdy, tankadins.
I've been playing as a prot paladin on several private servers over the past few years, and in preparation for Classic's release, I put together and published a WoWHead guide on protection paladin tanking, although I'd consider it far from being complete and is a work in progress. Link is below.
https://classic.wowhead.com/guides/lights-bulwark-protection-paladin-tanking
I have also been doing lots of theorycrafting and research on unique tanking armor and trinkets, as well as on paladin tanking abilities. The aim of my theorycrafting is to create mathematical formulas and analyses on tanking mechanics such as damage mitigation and threat generation in order to reach objective and factual conclusions about the most optimal and viable solutions for paladin tanks. I'm looking for like-minded people to work together with me on this.
Below is a link to my Google Drive folder containing theorycrafting spreadsheets for various items and abilities (view only).
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1W081A5J7x2gw18mXHaliEqkVxyKFSjgO?usp=sharing
Below are some sample screenshots of a few theorycrafting spreadsheets in my folder I've done so far.
Force Reactive Disk DPS - fun fact, the DPS scales exponentially with the number of mobs (N^2)
[image= 
?width=1309&height=702]
Holy Shield damage mitigation
[image= 
]
Holy Shield base threat generation
Seal of Righteousness basic analysis. I would say this one requires the most work as I still need to figure out the formula for how Main Hand Weapon speed affects the on-hit damage of SoR. At the very least i figured out the values for the minimum and maximums under various conditions.
Thank you Askalon, for shamelessly promoting your guide without even taking notice of the ongoing discussion.
I was hoping for another well informed opinion or perspective, some input at the very least. Disappointing.
Thank you Askalon, for shamelessly promoting your guide without even taking notice of the ongoing discussion.
I was hoping for another well informed opinion or perspective, some input at the very least. Disappointing.
Meh, take a look at his guide...
"The goal of this guide is to provide aspiring paladin tanks a comprehensive introduction towards become a successful tank for the majority of end-game content, excluding 40-man raids. What I define by success is being able to consistently tank 5-man dungeons and some 20-man raid encounters at approximately the same level as warrior tanks. Don't expect to be tanking Patchwerk or Kel'Thuzad anytime soon, though." (Askalon's guide)
He goes on to list the weaknesses of paladin tanks as:
No taunt
Limited access to raid-tier tanking gear
Almost no abilities available for single-target crowd control
No emergency damage mitigation abilities (e.g. Last Stand, Shield Wall)
Limited mana resource pool for spells and abilities
Under his reccomendations he states (and youre going to LOVE this Duki...)
"Highly recommended to not tank raids as a paladin during guild progression; only after raid is on farm."
"You will very likely need tanking gear of the same raid tier or higher to make up for a lack of surviability abilities (Shield Wall, Last Stand) compared to warrior tanks."
This one is for you Psojed
"Using consumables is a must. I recommend using a Flask of Supreme Power or Titans, Major Mana Potions, Mageblood Potions, and Mana Oil to keep up threat generation due to extended fight times."
Seems like he has a pretty accurate understanding of what to expect when playing a prot paladin. Very reasonable expectations. Also the conversation with Duki is a nightmare... The guy just keeps linking the same videos and is stuck in a mental loop. The conversation needed some fresh blood and this guide can add to the conversation for new guys who want some pally tanking info without the copious amounts of drama that can be found in this thread. I say, WELCOME aboard Askalon!
Dont get me wrong... I do enjoy a bit of drama, but for some of the other people who just want some information, this guide could be a good place to start. The video I linked at the start of the thread made by Skarm is pretty decent, and this guide also seems pretty accurate in a text based option. Two great options to help players get some pally tanking info.
The conversation needed some fresh blood and this guide can add to the conversation for new guys who want some pally tanking info without the copious amounts of drama that can be found in this thread.
Exactly, which is why I would have liked for him to not just link his guide but actually respond to the thread. Information is what I am looking for, since I have never played a Pally and probably never will.
It just seemed a shame to me; "oh there's a pally tanking thread, time to copy and paste my marketing post".
I just want to encourage a bit more contribution than that, is all :)
But you are right of course, the information given in said post is useful one way or the other.
I think Askalon has been one of the only ones to actually move the topic forward for a while. Thanks for your reasonable and well compiled information, this thread had turned into a real shit fight, and not actually providing reasonable and level headed information.
Well said Stfuppercut, credit where credit is due for the reply, I agree with you completely. It's nice to see realistic and informative replies.
Askalon
Thanks for the contribution. I thoroughly enjoyed the guide, and I do think this fits well into this thread, as its does answer what the original poster wanted to know about Paladin tanks. Which was the point of the thread in the first place.
I also found the graphs interesting, particularly the one showing Holy Shield threat. As per your own data, you need to actually use up all 4 charges of Holy Shield in order for the TPS from Holy Shield to surpass that of Consecration. This demonstrates just how little threat Paladins actually do compared with other tanks. I also believe the maximum block chance attainable by a Paladin tank in Vanilla is no more than 28%. This means expending all 4 charges against a single target is not very likely.
I do disagree with the build you posted though. In my experience, you are much more limited by your threat than you are by your survivability as a Paladin tank. I would not advice to pick Anticipation as a talent, and instead get Reckoning and One-Handed Weapon Specialization. I also strongly advice 2/2 Improved Judgement for extra TPS.
Because Defcap isnt really needed to tank in Vanilla, not having Anticipation wont hurt that badly. It's also just 10 +defense from 5 full points. That is less than what you can find on a single piece of gear.
I have the same feeling about improved Devotion Aura. Most of the time you will be using Ret Aura, and a Holy Paladin will be providing you with Devotion. In any case, you have the same problem as with Anticipation, which is that 5 full points need to be invested for a total bonus armor of 184.
It's just not worth the points in my opinion.
I would recomend this build instead:
Here you get Reckoning. Every time you get hit you will be doing an additional swing on your next attack. This means extra SoR, and it means an additional chance to trigger Judgement of Wisdom which you sorely need. The effect of the talent also increase dramatically with the number of mobs you are tanking. For 5 mans it often means you pull a group, get crit a few times, and then reckbomb the Skulltarget for 2-3 additional attacks all fueled by SoR for infinite threat on said mob until the pack is dead, leaving you to focus on other mobs.
For a demonstration of what I mean, check out my video from 5 man Stratholme, and notice just how many times I get crit (and thus get extra attacks) throughout the run.
Something to note is that this is private server footage, and I do utilize /sit for extra crits now and then. This wont work in Classic, but the talent will still be very strong just from getting passively crit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALOPKT55wVQ
Likewise, the One-Handed Weapon Specialization talent increase the damage dealt by Seal of Righteousness by 10% in addition to increasing your white damage. And because I feel threat is still our strongest issue, this talent will help with that.
I also think dropping some points in Parry to get Guardian's Favor can be perfectly viable. Let's you use your BoP as a pseudo taunt more often, which is a great help in 5man. It also extends the duration of your freedom which can work well on some mobs (Freedom makes you immune to the damage abilities that apply a slowdebuff such as Mindflay from the Inquisitors in Stratholme Living side)
Other than this though, It's obvious you put in a lot of time and effort into this guide, and I have to tell you how good it is to finally see a more objective guide to Paladin tanking be put out there. Great effort.
As for this:
I would say this one requires the most work as I still need to figure out the formula for how Main Hand Weapon speed affects the on-hit damage of SoR.
Perhaps I can help. Dmzor from the Classic Beta has put in a ton of time into researching Paladin mechanics, and came up with a formula for SoR that seem to hold true when checked against old videos.
At 60, the base damage for SoR is 18.675, and the actual formula for SoR damage is:
(((18.675 * WeaponSpeed ) * WeaponTypeCoeffcient) * Talent multipliers) + (Spellpower * 0.1)
WeaponTypeCoeffient is 0.85 for onehander, and 1.2 for twohanders.
Additionally you can multiply the damage of SoR with talents like Improved Seal of Righteousness (multiplier of 1.15) and One-Handed Weapon Specialization for (multiplier of 1.1). Both of these talents are applied BEFORE spellpower.
A 2.4 speed Ironfoe f.ex with 50 spellpower on gear and the talent Improved Seal of Righteousness would be doing
(((18.675 * 2.4 ) * 0.85) * 1.15) + (50 * 0.1) for a total of 48.8 damage.
On private servers this formula is different, and the spellpower coefficient from SoR gets multiplied by weapon speed which is not the case in Classic where the spellpower coefficient is just flat no matter the speed. This is another nerf to our threat in Classic compared with private servers.
I do believe the spellpower coefficient when wearing a twohander is slightly higher than onehander though. Something like 12.5% instead of 10% of Spellpower. Dont quote me on that.
If you want you should join the Discord server. A lot of good information has been gathered there from the Beta about Paladin mechanics, and I think someone like you would fit right in. There's not a whole lot of Prot info there right now, but perhaps you could help with that, or at least find like-minded individuals wanting to contribute to your guide. There's a lot of knowledgeable experienced Protection Paladins in the discord, some of whom have tanked raids.
Nice addition by Askalon and follow-up from Holyfrog.
Watching Holyfrog's video almost makes me want to tank as a Paladin. Almost :lol:
Perhaps this marks the end of the logical fallacy circle jerk :biggrin:
Holyfrog Why does your meter misread you as a Warrior? :O
It's just a bug with the addon because I disconnected. It gets fixed once the mage leave and the addon cycles through the party to update itself.
@Everyone
Thanks everybody for the positive feedback! I intentionally decided to abruptly join the conversation because after reading the entire thread. I felt like there were moments in which there was meaningful discussion being made, but between those moments, it was getting quickly derailed and turning into drama and harassment, which was getting in the way of making progress (no offense to anybody in particular, we all have our own passions and biases). Like I've said, my guide and research is extremely far from being complete, so I'll definitely be continuously updating them over time.
With regards to the original question of OP:
Is Paladin tanking still a dead end?
I do not think paladin tanking is a dead end. I think it has various use cases that it excels at, like dungeon tanking and AoE farming, asides from being fun, which is why I do it.
Holyfrog and Stfuppercut, Thank you for the excellent followups and the invite to the discord server! Definitely looking forward to joining a zealous community on this crusade (geddit cuz paladins)!
Looking forward to keeping up the discussion!