The conversation needed some fresh blood and this guide can add to the conversation for new guys who want some pally tanking info without the copious amounts of drama that can be found in this thread. I say, WELCOME aboard Askalon!
That is until Duki appears again with his libel, calling Askalon's a "prick" and a "noob" for claiming paladins can't tank Kel'Thuzad and "proving" they can with that awful Onyxia video...
The conversation needed some fresh blood and this guide can add to the conversation for new guys who want some pally tanking info without the copious amounts of drama that can be found in this thread. I say, WELCOME aboard Askalon!
That is until Duki appears again with his libel, calling Askalon's a "prick" and a "noob" for claiming paladins can't tank Kel'Thuzad and "proving" it with that awful Onyxia video...
What ever do you mean, that video is LITERAL proof of nothing :biggrin:
No Runes ,No Pots, No JoW , No Innervates = No Consumables dependent!
So the conclusion is simply to be over geared for content in order to make up for the lack of class talents? That video literally shows a Thunderfury wielding Paladin. That is not an everyday Prot Paladin scenario.
Nice to see you still living in my Shadow 14 years later Duki, stop while you're ahead. I'm getting married in 2 months cba farming 18 consumables 8 hours a week to Tank farm content I don't even play anymore and don't plan on playing Classic. A subscription for a 15 year old game? Seriously? By the way I have a revised guide on my computer that's 4 times as long and has everything anyone would ever want to know, including the bubble debuff add-on that hasn't been anywhere for anyone to find since wow-one shut down. The only thing I'm happy to see is that someone saved my guide because I didn't know it was still out there I had to rewrite it from scratch so I might revise it some now, but that being said it is and will be a definitive Tankadin Guide. It has a Profession Guide, Leveling Guide, and Raid Guide for all dungeons and is REALISTIC with a few WARNING sections if a guild wants to try something retarded like you soaking Patch or any other dumb shit which requires a nearly BiS group on farm content. Which by the way a majority of the BiS gear for Soaking Patch is Tier 3 Healing Gear because it has more armor and stamina. Hateful Strikes don't Crit so you have to just be able to eat it so you gear as a Feral Druid would for that.
As an added bonus heres video I put up from back then.
This was an attempt on a Progression Noth fight where we were short a Tank and they put me on a corner. I stopped recording because I was lagging a lot but as you can see I was able to hold 4 adds which is ridiculous. We killed it the next attempt I had to down rank 3 Exorcism to pull them and rotate with Judgement.
I do believe Prot Paladins can do Progression Content as well. Although I will say I always had BIS prior to that content *cough* and max consumes *cough* In Naxx I was doing Anub Adds and AOE bugs, Noth Corners, The Gauntlet, All Trash, Maexenna Adds for Stun Phases, Gothik Adds, a Faerlina Add and you could maybe Kite Gluth adds with a Zanza but I never bothered because a Mage doesn't need a fucking Zanza to do that. Besides I could heal pretty damn well with Tier 3 even as Prot Spec, which my guide also covers, ya'know having a heal set because during PROGRESSION a realistic person would know you need one (as well as Nightfall) for all the fights you won't be participating in.
Nice to see you still doing you Duki, you still don't understand what I was trying to do though. I always chose wearing good Tank Gear and using a lot of consumes over the convenience of being a shit Tank that took twice as much damage wearing bad gear with spell damage or MP5 and speccing Int over Strength in Holy and losing a significant amount of Block Value. There's something to be said about taking short cuts and being lazy, yeah you might get the job done but no healer is ever going to be impressed.
Peace - Cysthen
You want to know why you can't find that add-on anymore? Because I fucking made it.
Jesus This thread is on fire, not gonna read through it all though lol.
I found that argument earlier hilarious as well, talking about using Judge of Crusader and Judge of Wisdom.
I think these people forget there's a 16 debuff limit and you have to squeeze 40 people on it. Which means you won't be using those spells except for on a handful of adds that perhaps are solo Tanked off to the side.
That and it's a waste of Mana to even use those spells half the time because you need to pull with Judge of Righteous for burst threat. Seal of Righteous > Judge > Seal of Righteous (then you're trying tell me in 10 seconds you're going to do this following shit) > Seal of Crusader > Judge > Seal of Righteous. That is super inefficient and 90% of the time is overkill on threat if you're using Weapon Oil and Elixir.
Maybe if you're off tanking you can start with Crusader but you don't have Taunt so you're kind of just a high threat safety net that might never even get the boss if the Warrior doesn't die, that and you're significantly lowering the DPS of the Raid wasting that debuff slot, on top of being very Mana inefficient when you can just use your Seal 28 seconds before you Judgement again.
If anyone is going to use Judge of Crusader it should be a healer so you're not wasting Mana and even then you're wasting a debuff slot as I already stated.
There are some things that yeah sure maybe you can do them but you're usually better off just using consumables and just dropping a few higher rank Consecrations over using Judge of Crusader because it better suits your Raid. If you're even there to begin with because you're just there to add flavor to the Raid.
Paladin Tanks are those packets you put in Water to flavor them, Warriors are the Water. A lot of people don't like Paladin Tanks because they're watching their sugar intake and want to be healthy. They're nice to have around and make a few encounters fun, maybe even a little faster but it's not healthy farming 18 consumables and Raiding 3 nights a week on top of 20 man's on Weekends. I don't drink much Sugar anymore.
That and you won't have a Retribution Paladin for Sanctity Aura. Why? Because the class with the highest Nightfall Uptime is Hunter and believe it or not they're the best for that because they bring Trueshot Aura and can spam Wingclip (and Tranq Shot so you have to run 2 Hunters anyway). Don't believe me? Check out my video of me doing it on Nostalrius.
https://www.twitch.tv/cysthen/v/57456021?sr=a&t=1s
If you want to know more about Melee Hunters you can go here:
https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=28163
Flask of Supreme Power for threat testing? You will never use a Flask of Supreme Power for Tanking what the fuck is this you already have less Health than Warriors as it is. It's Flask of Titans only. Ever. Maybe if you're in full BiS in a ZG you can use a Supreme Power but I don't see why you would ever ever do that.
Don't mind Duki you guys he's been like this forever and was actually kind of a meme on that first Server. That's why he's still talking about me all I had to do was Google my name and here he is again, it's a Nightmare. He always used Spell Damage Weapons and always had bad English. He's dedicated sure but he's a meme, he's not a role model, and he's not using a fucking 15 Agility Enchant or a Tank Weapon and has 2% less Avoidance. (and 2000 less Health if he's using Supreme Power, and 10% less Strength from talents which translates to less Block Value).
Have fun healing him guys.
Oh and by the way Duki it's been 9 Years not 14.
P.S. Do any of you guys know a good Website that I can post my new Guide on that will be easy to find and will sticky it? Is this the place to do that?
I can host my own Website and not have to deal with comments or Duki which is my preference as I don't care to deal with him. The only issue is that's 20$ a year and granted yes I could pay that it doesn't seem like the best thing to do.
Taking any suggestions. Thanks in advance for the love everybody. I'd like to thank Furious I'm glad to see my old guide is still around on the internet in some capacity. Keep it real and don't let a Paladin gimping himself using a Spell Damage Weapon and Supreme Power in any of your Raids.
Hey Cysthen. Great post. One thing I want to point out though.
That and you won't have a Retribution Paladin for Sanctity Aura. Why? Because the class with the highest Nightfall Uptime is Hunter and believe it or not they're the best for that because they bring Trueshot Aura and can spam Wingclip (and Tranq Shot so you have to run 2 Hunters anyway). Don't believe me? Check out my video of me doing it on Nostalrius.
This is not really true. While you are right that Hunter's have a slightly higher uptime on Nightfall (45% instead of 40% like a Retpala has).. Well.. Good luck finding a Hunter that actually want to sit and melee every raid and get passed up on every piece of ranged loot to the other Hunters because of it.
Not going to happen.
The highest Nightfall uptime would be a Fury Warrior btw, with roughly 50%. But again, no Fury is going to be swinging it which usually means the person that swing a Nightfall in a raid is one of the offtank Warriors. And without the crit gear to maintain Flurry and generate rage enough to spam Hamstring, they are not nearly as effective as a Retpala.
Personally I dont have a problem with a Retpala in raids. If the Paladin player understands how to play into the support role and has a Nightfall and Annihilator, maintain buffs, cleanse, bops, has improved lay on hands, and is willing to farm Manual Crowd Pummelers for DPS then they can be a good asset to a raiding guild. Especially because their preferred gear for DPS will be Full T2 up until they can get the 2.5 Avenger set, which means you have one less player in the raid to share gear with. Which is a huge advantage to a guild.
The issue is more that most Paladins dont want to put in the effort required, but they are by no means a wasted slots imo.
Theres only 2 Hunters. Trust me they won't be upset losing any ranged loot because they won't be losing any ranged loot. If anything it helps them get more loot.
For example me getting Quickstrike Ring on my Hunter:
https://www.twitch.tv/cysthen/v/25981022?sr=a&t=0s
It is true and Melee Hunters do more DPS than Ranged Hunters in a group with 12+ Casters with Bloodvine+ Gear. Which during BWL+ Progression is every Raid.
I didn't bother reading the rest of your Ret Paladin supporting post because you said I was wrong but then said Hunters have more uptime.
That was all I needed to read.
That and your uptime percentages are wrong and guess's at best. Hunters have a Spammable Global Ability and Paladins don't so it's significantly more uptime.
I saw you mention Fury Warrior uptime. It is true that it's the fastest but that requires a Warrior with Flurry to spam Hamstring. With that said a regular Fury Warrior Dual Wielding will out dps regular Ranged Hunters and for that reason alone a Hunter is the best class for the job.
But again, no Fury is going to be swinging it which usually means the person that swing a Nightfall in a raid is one of the offtank Warriors. And without the crit gear to maintain Flurry and generate rage enough to spam Hamstring, they are not nearly as effective as a **Melee Hunter**
^Fixed
If you can find me a Ret Paladin that out dps's Fury Warriors in Single Target DPS I might change my mind but you won't because BiS Fury Warriors are commonly the Highest DPS in the game.
Also full Tier 2 isn't actually a good Ret Set (for PVE that is) they're better off using items like Lionheart Helm and Titanic Leggings to DPS. As well as using Seal of Command, which defeats the purpose of using a Nightfall all together.
I don't mind having a dedicated Ret Paladin in a Raid it's just I don't believe they deserve to be in the whole Nightfall argument. It might be a good BiS Preraid Weapon for them but they're better off equipping an upgrade and using Seal of Command. Especially if there are going to be Hunters using it anyway.
I admire your persistence Holyfrog to play a class I absolutely love but there are facts that one must take a sit back and respect. I'm not trying to sit here and say you can't clear every Raid with a Ret Paladin in the group. I'm just saying it's obviously not optimal.
Some of those crazy wild fantasy's are possible if an entirely decked out BiS group wants to do it just to do it, but they're still crazy wild fantasy's.
I can host my own Website and not have to deal with comments or Duki which is my preference as I don't care to deal with him. The only issue is that's 20$ a year and granted yes I could pay that it doesn't seem like the best thing to do.
Thanks Roadblock I'll take a look into that seems legit.
I'm not sure what bad blood has existed all these years between all of these prot pallies, but I am so glad that it spilled onto these forums. Some much needed spice. I grin each and everytime I see this thread jump back up to the top.
Also no disrespect to the guide posted earlier with all of the spell damage and stuff but I believe it's a Tanks number one job to take the least amount of damage as possible.
I've healed these so called Spell Damage Paladin Tanks on a Tier 2 Resto Druid with Rejuv Gem and trust me it isn't fun.
It might feel okay if you're the one doing it and you happen to pull it off but there's a right way and a wrong way to do things.
The right way will always be using consumables over trading talents or gear for your convenience otherwise it's the Raid who's really going to suffer.
If you can hold threat in full tank gear (including a tank Weapon for example Blackguard with 15 Agility) using consumables then you absolutely should. There's no excuse, you're not going to impress anybody using a Sageblade.
Stfuppercut Yeah the bad blood is real, I was trying to set a good realistic image for them doing it back in 2010 and Killerduki spammed my guide with all this bullshit about spell damage weapons and how I was doing it wrong, except I was doing it with 2% more avoidance successfully so I'm pretty sure he's wrong.
I'll try to get a real guide out for you guys pretty soon, one that has heal offsets which is more true to the whole experience in being in a 40man Raiding Guild.
As I've said before I wanted to make a website for it so I won't be posting the whole thing anywhere anytime soon.
In fact here's a teaser. I'm fully prepared to Copyright this when I am done. This is only 1/4th of the Guide. I have a Leveling Guide, a Profession Guide, a Dungeon/Raiding Guide with tips for every encounter for example dropping Divine Protection to get rid of Conflag and Solo Tanking Drakkisath in UBRS, including the stuff that should be obvious like HEALING on fights like Twin Emps, C'thun, Chromaggus etc. There's a lot of fights you need to Heal. As well as a Frequently asked Questions section.
Note: This was literally 1 of 4 Text Documents off my computer and has no pictures and is a rough draft. Thank you for understanding.
Edit: I've taken my Guide down as in trying to reserve it for when the times right.
I didn't bother reading the rest of your Ret Paladin supporting post because you said I was wrong but then said Hunters have more uptime.
I have no idea if I offended you somehow but there's no need to respond so agressively. You said you were getting married (congratulations btw) so, can I assume its been a while since you did serious endgame raiding?
Is it possible you are just a little out of the loop these days and that not everything that held true when you raided still hold true?
I didn't bother reading the rest of your Ret Paladin supporting post because you said I was wrong but then said Hunters have more uptime.
That was all I needed to read.
But again, no Fury is going to be swinging it which usually means the person that swing a Nightfall in a raid is one of the offtank Warriors. And without the crit gear to maintain Flurry and generate rage enough to spam Hamstring, they are not nearly as effective as a **Melee Hunter**
^Fixed
If you can find me a Ret Paladin that out dps's Fury Warriors in Single Target DPS I might change my mind but you won't because BiS Fury Warriors are commonly the Highest DPS in the game.
Also full Tier 2 isn't actually a good Ret Set (for PVE that is) they're better off using items like Lionheart Helm and Titanic Leggings to DPS. As well as using Seal of Command, which defeats the purpose of using a Nightfall all together.
I don't mind having a dedicated Ret Paladin in a Raid it's just I don't believe they deserve to be in the whole Nightfall argument. It might be a good BiS Preraid Weapon for them but they're better off equipping an upgrade and using Seal of Command. Especially if there are going to be Hunters using it anyway.
I admire your persistence @Holyfrog to play a class I absolutely love but there are facts that one must take a sit back and respect. I'm not trying to sit here and say you can't clear every Raid with a Ret Paladin in the group. I'm just saying it's obviously not optimal.
Some of those crazy wild fantasy's are possible if an entirely decked out BiS group wants to do it just to do it, but they're still crazy wild fantasy's.
I would never say people should play Ret in the most hardcore guilds. But this is the minority of guilds. For the large majority of guild the reality is they will not have 40 dedicated players who all undertand their class in detail. A Retpala if played properly absolutely can fit into a raid and even compete with other classes.
Also full Tier 2 isn't actually a good Ret Set (for PVE that is) they're better off using items like Lionheart Helm and Titanic Leggings to DPS. As well as using Seal of Command, which defeats the purpose of using a Nightfall all together.
Actually, T2 is better than all of those other items. Attackpower Command builds are yesterdays news. There's been quite a revolution in the way we approach Retpaladin right now. Instead of trying to stack melee stats to boost autoattack and Seal of Command, we instead opt to build around Spellpower, Seal of Righteousness and procs like Shadow Oil in what has been called the Spelladin build.
Because Spellpower boost all of your damage, and not just auto and seal, if you were to attack fast enough the spellpower easily outpace the physical attacks. The main weapon of choice is a Manual Crowd Pummeler, but you also can use fast weapons like Blade of Hanna, Flurry Axe or Ironfoe if you have the dedication to farm that.
If you want to about the specifics of the build itself, I strongly suggest you join our Discord and have a chat :)
https://discord.gg/G5HTYh5
Bottom line, the advantages of running a Spelladin build for raid is almost complete lack of competition for gear since you will be using T2 and mostly offpieces with either low or no competition, you bring decent Nightfall uptime, additional BoP/Imp LoH, Cleanse and Blessings, and on fights where Nightfall is not needed you can actually contribute substantially to DPS. Because Retribution is a DPS spec, there's no huge drain on a raid to have one, as DPS are never a critical role for the raid as long as they can provide the required DPS to kill bosses on time. Something a Ret is perfectly capable of doing.
I realize this build is really unknown to most. Thats because it did not even exists until half a year ago. But over the past few months, some very dedicated theorycrafters have brought the build to life, while myself and other Retpaladins have tested the build in live raids where it performed beyond expectation.
Because I dont just expect anyone to take my word for it, knowing how strong the Stigma against Retpaladins are. Here's a Paladin named Mourtagh who tried the build out in Naxx. Look at the absolutely mind blowing difference in DPS between this and a more traditional Attackpower Retribution build.
Accounting for the differences between private server and what we have seen on the Beta, the Spelladin build will still dramatically outperform Attackpower Command based builds.
Forgive me if I made any assumptions about you in my post, but I dont really know you. I have only heard your name mentioned briefly, and I honestly have no idea what your vanilla experience is like and how much you have raided and in which guilds. So when you show up in this thread and act (the way I see it) in a very pretencious and condesending manner I can only wonder if there's some past history here that I am not aware of, that you let spill into this thread.
That and your uptime percentages are wrong and guess's at best. Hunters have a Spammable Global Ability and Paladins don't so it's significantly more uptime.
As you can see in this thread I am no stranger to evidence and sources. I dont have quick access to the uptime spreadsheet right now, but the uptime numbers I gave you are the ones I have been informed were the correct numbers. I always take great care to make sure the information I give out is as accurate as possible, and if I'm wrong, I'd love a source to correct me.
If all you are going to do is to state I am wrong, then that's not really any different from what Killerduki is doing, and preventing that was the reason for why I made an account on these forums in the first place.