Okay, I'm going to get real and just come out and say if you want a non-warrior tank you'd have been better off rolling Druid.
Yea. I mean, its tough to discourage someone from trying to play something that they are interested in, but you need to identify your motivation to play a pally tank. If raid tanking is the end goal, OP should just roll a warrior. Pallys can tank 5 mans. They are decent for AoE tanking, but they will still be slower in 5 mans because they constantly have to sit and drink. In almost every circumstance they will not be optimal. Your opportunities will be reduced and you will work twice as hard for half of the reward. Players will outline specific encounters where you can shine, but understand that the other tanks can ALSO tank in those circumstances, you may not be able to tank in other circumstances. This means that it is a HUGE guild investment, for a very small return. Their are holy pally/prot specs that can function for some offtanking. A feral is still preferable in this roll.
The downside is we dont want to discourage someone from trying something. We also dont want to encourage someone to invest time into something that will be dismissed by the majority of players. We can sit in our little Classic bubble all day stroking one another and encouraging eachother because vanilla isnt about min/maxing!!!! But then youre going to have to roll on a server full of random players, and we wont be there, and you will be a prot pally... a very very lonely prot pally.
Normally for raids, Warriors get time to build rage and get x sunders on the target before DPS jumps in. Would that similar amount of time not be enough for Paladins to keep aggro in raids. Most classes have an aggro reduction skill, but yes, no taunt is kind of a bummer. As I have never played a Paladin before in classic, do they run out of mana that quick in fights trying to keep aggro? Even with the correct gear and talent optimization, they would be oom before any boss is defeated in MC?
you mentioned the right gear, and that's one problem - paladin tanks have small mana pools because good tank gear is light on int, especially in early phases (I remember a set from Scholomance I think, but don't remember if it was actually any good). this is a problem with a lot of hybrid specs - the itemization wasn't super supportive in vanilla. there's consumables and enchants and stuff that can help with this part, but pally tanks are casting spells constantly, and won't be passively regenerating any mana aside from whatever they can get in mp5 gear/consumables.
as far as initial aggro, i remember reading somewhere that one of the quirks of paladin tanking was part of their version of "2 sunders" is the mobs all hitting them and getting reflected damage from their blocks and aura and stuff, so things like cheap shot or other stuns can really mess up the early threat. as well, the paladin could just give salvation to the DPS instead of wisdom or might. and there's always blessing of protection - not just a way to troll the melee DPS for prot pallies. i guess it's the closest thing they have to a taunt, but it only works on melee mobs, and if you don't pass them in threat by the time it wears off....
as far as raids like MC go, as i mentioned before, a lot of the pally's threat is from the mobs hitting them and getting holy damage reflected back, and stuff in MC can hit pretty hard. there's probably a sweet spot where the paladin has tanky enough gear to survive the pulls and maintain aggro for certain fights, but it wouldn't be while progressing - you'd basically already need to have the gear from the raid to survive tanking it, I think. maybe gear from the next tier, in addition to all your usual consumables.
Okay, I'm going to get real and just come out and say if you want a non-warrior tank you'd have been better off rolling Druid.
Yea. I mean, its tough to discourage someone from trying to play something that they are interested in, but you need to identify your motivation to play a pally tank. If raid tanking is the end goal, OP should just roll a warrior. Pallys can tank 5 mans. They are decent for AoE tanking, but they will still be slower in 5 mans because they constantly have to sit and drink. In almost every circumstance they will not be optimal. Your opportunities will be reduced and you will work twice as hard for half of the reward. Players will outline specific encounters where you can shine, but understand that the other tanks can ALSO tank in those circumstances, you may not be able to tank in other circumstances. This means that it is a HUGE guild investment, for a very small return. Their are holy pally/prot specs that can function for some offtanking. A feral is still preferable in this roll.
The downside is we dont want to discourage someone from trying something. We also dont want to encourage someone to invest time into something that will be dismissed by the majority of players. We can sit in our little Classic bubble all day stroking one another and encouraging eachother because vanilla isnt about min/maxing!!!! But then youre going to have to roll on a server full of random players, and we wont be there, and you will be a prot pally... a very very lonely prot pally.
I'm investing a lot of stock into the fact that OP has never played a classic pally. I hate playing ret pally in vanilla. The spec feels so dull. And yet, somehow, I played ret pally in every expansion until I quit retail starting with BC!
The point is, the class he wants to play practically doesn't even exist yet. If he wants to try anyway he shouldn't expect to even enjoy his class or his spec since it may feel completely half baked with a leg removed and a wooden one instead.
The point is, the class he wants to play practically doesn't even exist yet. If he wants to try anyway he shouldn't expect to even enjoy his class or his spec since it may feel completely half baked with a leg removed and a wooden one instead.
With a leg removed, with a resource bar completely empty, with very little gear optimized for him, playing in a raid that will throw him some left overs as the local meme spec, where he will likely be asked to respec weekly, in a role that is designed to hold threat with no taunt, being completely dismissed or laughed at by a gigantic portion of the playerbase, requiring twice the consumes to play........ all of this so you can tank 5 mans slower than either of the other two tanks because you are drinking after every 1-2 pulls.
The effort is worth it IF you specifically want to play a prot pally. If you dont, you will be very disappointed. If you are fixated on rolling prot pally, know that this will be an uphill battle and understand the effort it will require. Dont expect handouts because you will need to earn your spot and you will work twice as hard to do that as anyone else.
edit: If posts like this discourage a player from trying to play a spec like prot pally, they werent going to be able to deal with the feedback they would have received from their fellow players throughout the course of their leveling anyhow. I'd rather be the bad guy now and let OP hear some real talk before he gets his hopes up and invests his valuable time into something that wont be valued by his fellow players. If comments like this only invigorate your desire to play as a meme and this comment acts as fuel for your ambition, you are likely the right fit for a meme spec and should start stacking up on witty comebacks for the naysayers.
The point is, the class he wants to play practically doesn't even exist yet. If he wants to try anyway he shouldn't expect to even enjoy his class or his spec since it may feel completely half baked with a leg removed and a wooden one instead.
With a leg removed, with a resource bar completely empty, with very little gear optimized for him, playing in a raid that will throw him some left overs as the local meme spec, where he will likely be asked to respec weekly, in a role that is designed to hold threat with no taunt, being completely dismissed or laughed at by a gigantic portion of the playerbase, requiring twice the consumes to play........ all of this so you can tank 5 mans slower than either of the other two tanks because you are drinking after every 1-2 pulls.
The effort is worth it IF you specifically want to play a prot pally. If you dont, you will be very disappointed. If you are fixated on rolling prot pally, know that this will be an uphill battle and understand the effort it will require. Dont expect handouts because you will need to earn your spot and you will work twice as hard to do that as anyone else.
Haha, made me chuckle with that first line.
I've been thinking though, what would OP likely enjoy playing in vanilla if he enjoyed prot pally in BC?
Gauze What was it specifically that you enjoyed about BC prot pally? The AOE? The tanking? Versatility? We could always suggest things for you to try out or look into to see if they're enjoyable. I'd just hate to see you spend all that time leveling or getting pre-raid gear for something that may not even be fun for you.
Hey folks, huge thanks for everybody's input and comments. Read through them all and a lot of good points were discussed.
Linguine, I have not played WoW in many years, last time was in Wrath. So what I am remembering might be a bit off. I just remembered having a blast with it in BC being able to AoE tank quite well, being very involved with all the different abilities you had available, and the spells themselves were just a blast to use (they also looked pretty awesome). While I realize most of those abilities will not be around in classic, the old memories just really sparked my desire to look closer into rolling one in Classic to see if it might actually be possible.
However, after reading through everything in this thread I do not think it will be a path I take as I will have limited play time (family) and will most likely aim for a more casual guild which I am guessing would make this even more difficult. While it does seem like it is technically possible, the playtime and commitment to overcome the potential handicap might be a bit too high to really make it work.
Hey folks, huge thanks for everybody's input and comments. Read through them all and a lot of good points were discussed.
@Linguine, I have not played WoW in many years, last time was in Wrath. So what I am remembering might be a bit off. I just remembered having a blast with it in BC being able to AoE tank quite well, being very involved with all the different abilities you had available, and the spells themselves were just a blast to use (they also looked pretty awesome). While I realize most of those abilities will not be around in classic, the old memories just really sparked my desire to look closer into rolling one in Classic to see if it might actually be possible.
However, after reading through everything in this thread I do not think it will be a path I take as I will have limited play time (family) and will most likely aim for a more casual guild which I am guessing would make this even more difficult. While it does seem like it is technically possible, the playtime and commitment to overcome the potential handicap might be a bit too high to really make it work.
Your remembrance probably isn't off at all! I've heard many say the same about BC prot pallies. I leveled prot pally in BC, and even that was lots of fun.
If you do get the chance, I think this video will help shed some light on prot pally tanking in vanilla Gauze.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdNFdBB3GfA
Most of this was covered throughout the thread, but the information is a bit more credible coming from someone with a lot of prot pally experience. For context, the video you will be watching has gameplay of a VERY geared prot paladin clearing a very entry level piece of content and you can still see the mana issues that were discussed. He has some interesting insight on gearing as well.
Bear in mind that this footage is from private. So it is entirely possible that prot paladins will be the BEEZ KNEEZ in Classic, if private values were WAY off... But lets be real, this will probably be your reality give or take a little inaccuracy here or there.
edit: It's really funny to think about the juxtaposition of some of these meme specs. Most of these specs are inherently suboptimal but require a player to min/max in an effort to make them viable? So you have to be a min/maxer and intentionally choose a suboptimal spec and then min/max just to become relevant. A really strange thought. I guess this is why they appeal to such a small percentage of the playerbase? I didnt realize how deep the tanking meta goes for prot pallies... As I watch this video, its so much worse than I had imagined.
5 man tanking: Doable, but with more breaks (mana issues for Prot pally) vs. other tanks. You don't have any o-shit buttons, also you don't have any taunts. You have no issues with short fights for aggro, but longer fights will mean that you'll go OOM. OOM = no threat
Raids: Uhh.. Not really, no. I mean you can tank the trash probably, but bosses, no. The largest issue is lack of mana regen, NOT taunt (bosses before Naxx (and AQ40?) are taunt immune anyway.
There simply isn't enough gear (mp5 plates) and no mana regen talents like in TBC for Vanilla Paladins unfortunately.
They are really great for dungeons for undead mobs though, so if you're not going to raid you can still have tons of fun / value.
One of the problems of paladin tanking I could see is when raiding, is not strange that the aggro on adds sometimes changes because dps's go too far or you are not paying the appropriate attention, if an add in a raid starts dancing around dps's, that's trouble. And if you don't have the means to take back control of that mob (because you are out of mana, because you can't taunt him, or because you simply can't generate that much threat). You all are gonna wipe.
In raids mistakes happen, and if you don't have the tools to fix them, you all are not going to advance that night.
Maybe a pally in tier 3 can brute force tank Molten Core with no problems, but I seriously doubt a pally can tank Naxxrammas with no issues (the very moment someone makes an aggro related mistake, you probably are in trouble).
I have a played a paladin tank from TBC to Cata.
Because I really wanted to know if they work in classic, I recently played one on a pserver. I had a very knowledgeable player tutoring me, so I think I know everything to do it as optimal as possible.
That said, lets look at what you miss compared to TBC+ and what is a urban legend.
You miss..
Can't ever fix issues 1-3, #4 can be worked around, for example with grenades or by using https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=10314/exorcism .
Being engineer is mandatory as paladin tank, I would even suggest it's mandatory for paladins of every specc because it fixes a couple of your class limits.
In addition, as with retardins, you need to have optimal enchants and consumes, to perform better and be less of a burden.
Now equipment isn't that bad as people make it out to be. You need a wild mix of stats: stamina, enough int for 4k mana unbuffed, spelldamage and mp5. I would not suggest going too much into defense, because you probably won't ever tank raid bosses, and it's fine to be critted & crushed by dungeon bosses. As any good tank will tell you, get bigger bags and use a variety of equipment tailored to the specific encounters.
That said, you ARE the slowest tank and need to drink every other pull and will burn alot of https://classic.wowhead.com/item=13444/major-mana-potion and https://classic.wowhead.com/item=20520/dark-rune . And it really helps if your gear is one tier higher than the current content ( like t1 for 60ies dungeons) . Also don't forget to remind your group to never stun enemies, because if they don't hurt themselves attacking you, you make less threat.
So long story short: it works, but it takes some effort.
If you have more questions, feel free to ask!
However, after reading through everything in this thread I do not think it will be a path I take as I will have limited play time (family) and will most likely aim for a more casual guild which I am guessing would make this even more difficult. While it does seem like it is technically possible, the playtime and commitment to overcome the potential handicap might be a bit too high to really make it work.
This is the entire reason I would strongly suggest you don't get discouraged. Not to blame anyone, but in my opinion you received the wrong message.
1. The environment that will most probably decline your wish to tank as a paladin will not be a casual environment, it will be at the progressive/hardcore end of the spectrum. If you want to play a protection pally in a casual guild, I'm sure you'll find a community that enables you to.
2. The handicaps (your words not mine) you face as a Paladin are not of a nature that you can overcome by adding playtime. As has been stated by others in this thread, paladins lack the right gear for tanking mana efficiently. Also, there is no way to compensate for a lack of a taunt ability. (This is what I gathered from others comments, I'm not a paladin specialist)
3. The whole viable vs. optimal discussion escalates extremely quickly; i'd like to provide my perspective.
In today's Classic World of WarCraft, we - the players - are omniscient.
Back in 2005, we, the majority of the player base - any statements made hereafter are based on subjective experience - were clueless. I was in a guild back then that was neither ambitious nor casual. We aspired to clear all content, but we had no ambition to be the best. Most players I remember would run with the tier sets, even tier 0 & organize their specs to compliment the set bonuses. There were no Best in Slot item lists. Some of us knew there was such a thing as thottbot, but we were young and simply wanted to play the game. Some people used consumables, some didn't, I remember farming the Blasted Lands buffs, while others were completely oblivious to the fact that these even existed. There was no organized world buffing & our raid was composed of whatever players were online at the time of the raid. And guess what, we cleared raids. We might have taken several raid evenings to do so, but we did. Week by week.
With today's optimized raid compositions, complete with predetermined specs and geared "by bis list", minmaxed for raid content, we can quite effortlessly start clearing Molten Core in a single evening a few days after everyone hit level 60. The private server community has absolutely pushed the limit of what is technically possible to achieve.Their efforts, theorycrafting and testing are much appreciated assets to the community & should be highly valued and respected.
That being said: yes, you can raid the same content without optimized comp, gear and spec. You will take a while longer & you will probably experience wipes, but the Molten Core as the first raid tier can most definitely be cleared with non-optimal builds as long as the unique challenges posed by certain bosses are understood can technically be overcome (starting with enough raid members that can decurse, for example). Organizing to go for a couple of world buffs and having your guild organize some basic consumables for the raid, you should be good to go. I dare predict that with some amount of preparation, combined with the quality of life improvements that are addons, early raiding will still be a breeze compared to the old days.
It is normally stated that Paladins can't tank and Warriors are king, but I am was curious if they can legitimately not tank and holds agro or if they are just less optimal than a warrior? With the knowledge of the classes, raids, easier to optimize your gear, etc. Is Paladin tanking still a dead end? While I mained priest in classic, I did quite a bit of Paladin tanking in BC and really enjoyed it.
Yes, I know warriors are better at tanking, but with the right gear and spec nowadays, is it possible?
Thanks!
Careful, CAREFUL! there is a lot of negative misconceptions regarding paladin tanking from misinformed people even from paladin tanks themselves...
1. Paladins can tank but are not optimal. (Paladins require more effort than warriors.)
2. Yes they can MT. Taunt it not a deal breaker because chances are as a paladin you are already in a serious guild therefore "Threat Leap Frogging" is not outside the realm of reality and more easily performed. (there are also bubble tricks, etc...)
I play as a shaman raid tank and when people say paladins can tank it bothers me to insane levels since paladins are a whole tier above shamans.
If you have any question feel free to @ me.
If you have any question feel free to @ me.
You aren't logged in, but you seem like you may be Caperfin?
Selexin yeah, wow I didn't know you can speak as a guest.
