Man, Prot Paladin's make feral druids look like a bunch of weed smoking chilled out hippies. Our arguments never get this heated haha, we usually understand that we aren't optimal, but can fill a certain position and have a lot of fun in the process.
It's really unfortunate that people see Paladin players this way. Talk about the few ruining it for the many. Spent so much time here defeating every point Killerduki made only for him to come back and spam the exact same garbage that was already disproved all over again while just completely ignoring the last 12 pages of discussion.
It's insanely annoying, and I hope people are clever enough to just ignore the guy by now because he's really taken a lesson from Aldous Huxley's Brave New World. If people disagree with what you say then rather than reconsider your own position, or make better arguments you just drown them in information to the point where nobody can be bothered to distinguish between true and false anymore.
Because that's exactly what Killerduki is doing. You can pick apart every argument he makes, demonstrate they are wrong using reason, logic and evidence, and he will just ignore anything you say and keep stating the same nonsense over and over until everyone get bored..
Short of just straight up banning people there's unfortunately no real way of preventing this kind of behaviour from just flooding every forum with bad info to the end of days.
I would love for people to try Paladin tanking. I think its a cool class that can do some great things both in and outside raids. But that being said, I will much rather take the position that Paladins are not viable for tanking raids, over letting people think Paladins are just as strong as Warriors only for them to level to 60 and get disappointed and quit the game. Nobody win on this.
Why Duki insist we are the same as Warriors I will never understand. It's demonstrably false. Raids are designed around Warrior tanks. Blizzard didnt sit down when they designed the bosses and carefully considered all the tanking classes and how the encounters would work for them.
Why would they? Horde dont even have Paladin tanks. Designing with Paladin tanks in mind would be stupid.
Just looking at the boss encounters in the game, they are all designed around Warrior threat mechanics. Some bosses mana burn. Plenty of bosses have debuffs that only target mana users. Some have silence effects, and other require taunt swaps. Druids work for the majority of them simply because they have very similar mechanics. Paladins however just falls into this place where they happen to work for a lot of bosses by chance. Not because of deliberate intent on the part of the designers.
What he dont seem to realize is that if he actually wants Paladins to tank in raids, then he needs to be open about the weaknesses of the class and work on how to overcome them. Not antogonize everyone that dont agree 100% with what he's claiming. The community has to stick together. Nobody wins on this constant bickering and fighting over nonsense.
All Killerduki accomplishes is to turn everyone who could have been his allies in fighting the stigma of Protpaladins into enemies, while at the same time creating this image of Protpaladin players as childish bickering morons who should be kept as far away from raids as possible. He's done incredible damage to the perception people have of Protection Paladins, and sadly I dont think he will ever realize.
Man, Prot Paladin's make feral druids look like a bunch of weed smoking chilled out hippies. Our arguments never get this heated haha, we usually understand that we aren't optimal, but can fill a certain position and have a lot of fun in the process.
It's really unfortunate that people see Paladin players this way. Talk about the few ruining it for the many. Spent so much time here defeating every point Killerduki made only for him to come back and spam the exact same garbage that was already disproved all over again while just completely ignoring the last 12 pages of discussion.
It's insanely annoying, and I hope people are clever enough to just ignore the guy by now because he's really taken a lesson from Aldous Huxley's Brave New World. If people disagree with what you say then rather than reconsider your own position, or make better arguments you just drown them in information to the point where nobody can be bothered to distinguish between true and false anymore.
Because that's exactly what Killerduki is doing. You can pick apart every argument he makes, demonstrate they are wrong using reason, logic and evidence, and he will just ignore anything you say and keep stating the same nonsense over and over until everyone get bored..
Short of just straight up banning people there's unfortunately no real way of preventing this kind of behaviour from just flooding every forum with bad info to the end of days.
I would love for people to try Paladin tanking. I think its a cool class that can do some great things both in and outside raids. But that being said, I will much rather take the position that Paladins are not viable for tanking raids, over letting people think Paladins are just as strong as Warriors only for them to level to 60 and get disappointed and quit the game. Nobody win on this.
Why Duki insist we are the same as Warriors I will never understand. It's demonstrably false. Raids are designed around Warrior tanks. Blizzard didnt sit down when they designed the bosses and carefully considered all the tanking classes and how the encounters would work for them.
Why would they? Horde dont even have Paladin tanks. Designing with Paladin tanks in mind would be stupid.
Just looking at the boss encounters in the game, they are all designed around Warrior threat mechanics. Some bosses mana burn. Plenty of bosses have debuffs that only target mana users. Some have silence effects, and other require taunt swaps. Druids work for the majority of them simply because they have very similar mechanics. Paladins however just falls into this place where they happen to work for a lot of bosses by chance. Not because of deliberate intent on the part of the designers.
What he dont seem to realize is that if he actually wants Paladins to tank in raids, then he needs to be open about the weaknesses of the class and work on how to overcome them. Not antogonize everyone that dont agree 100% with what he's claiming. The community has to stick together. Nobody wins on this constant bickering and fighting over nonsense.
All Killerduki accomplishes is to turn everyone who could have been his allies in fighting the stigma of Protpaladins into enemies, while at the same time creating this imagine of Protpaladin players as childish bickering morons who should be kept as far away from raids as possible. He's done incredible damage to the perception people have of Protection Paladins, and sadly I dont think he will ever realize.
It's really unfortunate that people see Paladin players this way. Talk about the few ruining it for the many. Spent so much time here defeating every point Killerduki made only for him to come back and spam the exact same garbage that was already disproved all over again while just completely ignoring the last 12 pages of discussion.
I have never seen any real Evidence to disapprove my point , unfortunately and at least NOT from you!
Point me a single thing where you or someone disapproved me wrong so far?! Please enlighten us all with Evidence , looking forward to see a single thing.
It's insanely annoying, and I hope people are clever enough to just ignore the guy by now because he's really taken a lesson from Aldous Huxley's Brave New World. If people disagree with what you say then rather than reconsider your own position, or make better arguments you just drown them in information to the point where nobody can be bothered to distinguish between true and false anymore.
Because that's exactly what Killerduki is doing. You can pick apart every argument he makes, demonstrate they are wrong using reason, logic and evidence, and he will just ignore anything you say and keep stating the same nonsense over and over until everyone get bored..
Perhaps you speak for yourself , i never seen any Evidence, all i see from you is few 5 man Dungeon Videos (which i have shit lots of them) and few Trash Pack in Raids , which not only you prove anything with that Videos , but you are rather noisy about preaching stuffs you never provide a single evidence for what you say!
Short of just straight up banning people there's unfortunately no real way of preventing this kind of behaviour from just flooding every forum with bad info to the end of days.
Great , ban all those who have different point of view than your personal believes, so you could turn this Topic and whole Class discussion into Idiotic terms without Evidence like :
Paladins are suboptimal.
You need to use shit tons of consumes.
Paladins do lesser threat.
Paladins survive lesser than others.
Paladins have no Taunt.
Paladins can't Main Tank Raid Bosses.
Paladins can't Main Tank End Game Bosses.
Paladins can't Main Tank Swap Bosses.
Paladins have Mana issues.
Paladins don't have O'Shit Buttons.
Game is design around Warrior Tanks.
All these shits i hear from Idiots 24/24 who have absolutely no clue what they are talking about.
Why Duki insist we are the same as Warriors I will never understand. It's demonstrably false.
You don't understand, you provide no evidence for your claims , but therefore you demonstrate and claim something you have no idea if it is true or false , since you never seen it or done it personally . But then you decide to ignore those who have done it , including their evidence with cherry picking little things within tiny eggs.
Raids are designed around Warrior tanks. Blizzard didnt sit down when they designed the bosses and carefully considered all the tanking classes and how the encounters would work for them.
Yeah SURE!
Lucifron Curse = 100% Rage cost for all Warrior Abilities.
Neffarian Paladin Class Call = Immune to ALL Warrior attacks and abilities.
Onyxia = Immune to taunt beside threat reset between 2-3 phase.
Viscudus = Warrior unable to Cleanse while Tanking.
Kel'thuzad = Immune to Taunt beside threat reduction during Mind Control.
"Designed for Warriors" ®made by Holyfrog ..... Where Paladins are superior over Warriors in those Fights!
Why would they? Horde dont even have Paladin tanks.
Exactly , because they have Shammans who can Heal , Melee DPS and Range DPS.
Designing with Paladin tanks in mind would be stupid.
Agree , that's why Blizzard designed this Game for ALL Classes and ALL Specs equally !
Some bosses mana burn.
Same as some bosses do curse for 0 Rage starvation , Immune to Physical Damage.
Plenty of bosses have debuffs that only target mana users.
Plenty or "Few" , while Plenty of Bosses have deadly Debuffs which Warrior is unable to survive , but Paladin using Bubble can survive and reset them either!
Some have silence effects
Which are causing Taunt not being able to be used thanks to Silence effects,while Paladin Seal already activated is still going to work thru Silence.
and other require taunt swaps.
Which has Abilities that allows Paladin being able to Main Tank them either + there are Bosses with Taunt Immunity too , which is designed against Warriors!
Druids work for the majority of them simply because they have very similar mechanics. Paladins however just falls into this place where they happen to work for a lot of bosses by chance. Not because of deliberate intent on the part of the designers.
Eating Crits and Crushing Blows not only causing Druids being suboptimal compare to Paladins ,but also makes Druids being UNABLE to Tank certain type of Bosses either!
What he dont seem to realize is that if he actually wants Paladins to tank in raids, then he needs to be open about the weaknesses of the class and work on how to overcome them.
That's why i am there teaching Paladins how to do stuffs in the Game in order to successfully do their job in order to overcome their problems!
What you do is just demotivating , preaching shits about Paladin Tanks , denigrating Paladins , telling People can't do something because of "Weakness within your imagination and believes" and therefore criticizing Evidence and demonstrating your point without providing or presenting a single piece of Evidence from you regarding things!
Sorry , but that doesn't work like that, you and idiots like you are the reason why Paladins suffer that terrible and not being able to achieve their goals!
Not antogonize everyone that dont agree 100% with what he's claiming.
The ones who antogonize everyone that don't agree 100% is you , i know that might hurt your feelings or ego , but you provide nothing , rather you are being a damn brag and annoying person who with deliberate purpose attacking someone else's points without providing evidence for your personal claims.
Let see = you don't agree that Paladins don't have Mana issues , the evidence was presented to you , you cherry pick shits out of the evidence and you denigrate it with shit tons of excuses , therefore you gave 0 evidence for such excuses and claims...
The community has to stick together. Nobody wins on this constant bickering and fighting over nonsense.
You mean Idiots like you who shit on Paladins 24/24 has to stick together, you are right , they are already together in this.
All Killerduki accomplishes is to turn everyone who could have been his allies in fighting the stigma of Protpaladins into enemies
I don't care if someone want's to be my ally or enemy , i am always telling and serving the truth , not only because i believe it's truth , but because i have done it personally things i am talking about! Truth>Allies/Enemies and i don't give a shit about the rest.
while at the same time creating this imagine of Protpaladin players as childish bickering morons who should be kept as far away from raids as possible.
Before Killerduki came on the scene.
Paladin image 6 years ago = Jokes who can't even tank 5 mans.
Killerduki on the scene .
Paladin image 5 years ago = Good for 5 mans , can't handle Raid Bosses.
Paladin image 4 years ago = Epic for 5 mans , can Tank Raid Bosses , but can't survive all of them.
Paladin image 3 years ago = Best for 5 mans , can Main Tank Raid Bosses and survive them , but can't aggro enough.
Paladin image 2 years ago = Best for AoE and 5 Mans , viable for Raids , can aggro tank and survive , but can't tank aggro swap and have mana issues.
Paladin image today = Best for AoE and 5 mans , viable for Raids , can aggro tank and survive Progression , can tank aggro swap and don't have mana issues.
Idiots like you today = shitting on Killerduki points and evidence 24/24, instead of talking about Topic Discussion , you rather talk about Killerduki .
He's done incredible damage to the perception people have of Protection Paladins, and sadly I dont think he will ever realize.
Sure , incredible damage to idiots like you who spill false information and lies about Protection Paladins , that's true!
A wild Killerduki appeared
Forum player used Logical argument
It didn't affect Killerduki
Killerduki used rage
Forum player used Rational reasoning
It doesn't affect Killerduki
Killerduki is raging on...
Spent so much time here defeating every point Killerduki made only for him to come back and spam the exact same garbage that was already disproved all over again while just completely ignoring the last 12 pages of discussion.
It's insanely annoying, and I hope people are clever enough to just ignore the guy by now because he's really taken a lesson from Aldous Huxley's Brave New World. If people disagree with what you say then rather than reconsider your own position, or make better arguments you just drown them in information to the point where nobody can be bothered to distinguish between true and false anymore.
Yea. I definitely think there is a line and he crossed it almost immediately. Started namecalling and accusing people of being racists, spammed the chat and put low effort into his posts. He seemed to be stuck in a mental loop throughout the entire discussion and never moved the conversation forward. I understand being passionate about Classic, I am super pumped for Classic, and I understand wanting to give a good quantity of information, but his ideas aren't even organized.
To your point about spooking of would-be paladin players, I think this is exactly the case. People like this do such an immense quantity of irreparable harm to their own communities. In a few months Classic will have all sorts of fresh eyes on it and new players will be seeking info on a variety of builds. They will google prot paladins and these kinds of interactions will come up. The good news is that they will also see your posts.
I know that I started the conversation with pretty reasonable expectations of paladins. After talking with Duki and Psojed and even seeing some of the overconfidence and arrogance presented by other paladins, It was pretty off-putting. For a spec that depends on teamwork and collaboration to work and for a spec that has limited opportunity like prot pally, you would think the people who played it would be a bit more tactful. Luckily for this community they do have rational voices like yourself who are giving solid information as well, and are doing so with a bit of diplomacy.
After talking with Duki and Psojed and even seeing some of the overconfidence and arrogance presented by other paladins, It was pretty off-putting.
You mean the lessons Psojed gave to you and Holyfrog about it, but then you and Holyfrog decided to derail it with low efforts?!
Reminder :
https://barrens.chat/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1655&start=125
https://barrens.chat/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1655&start=150
https://barrens.chat/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1655&start=175
https://barrens.chat/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1655&start=200
https://barrens.chat/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1655&start=225
It's funny how you are the one getting Arrogant and Aggressive when things are not in favor regarding your believes and ways.
I admit , my "Engrish" is poor , mainly when i am writing with lots of Grammar errors.
But then when someone like Psojed who actually speak fluent English but do share "similar" (Not same) views to mine , giving you a lesson about it in proper english way , you are straight forward getting nervous and repeating with huge ignorance same Denigrating words about Paladins.
Even tho he failed you multiple times with facts and evidence and words, you still wont and don't admit that you were/are/is wrong!
I’m learning more about paladins from this thread alone than years of retail.
Quite fascinating stuff if you remove some of the weird parts of the thread. :biggrin:
I'm taking this as an invitation to remove "the weird parts" as a service to the community :ugeek:
So for people that want to skip to the meat and bones (high effort + quality of information) posts here's a handy list :wink:
Now you don't have to read 13 pages of copy paste.
Druids wear leafs and stuff on their shoulders and live stress free. Wish I could be a druid but I was born a paladin sadly.
Feeling leafy baby :wink:
You mean the lessons @Psojed gave to you and Holyfrog about it, but then you and Holyfrog decided to derail it with low efforts?!
Sort of like when Psojed told us that prot paladins dont use consumables? Yeah, he had some really insightful information to add to the conversation.
Roadblock Great job on that list!
You mean the lessons @Psojed gave to you and Holyfrog about it, but then you and Holyfrog decided to derail it with low efforts?!
Sort of like when Psojed told us that prot paladins dont use consumables? Yeah, he had some really insightful information to add to the conversation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I-Y9vd5mPk
But he was right about that, he didn't base his information on words like you do , he did base it on evidence presented and this Video is pure evidence about it , when a single elixir (which wouldn't make any difference if it was not used) was used without ANY other Consume used , no pots,no runes etc etc.
He never said "no consumes" , but he said that you can do it even without , which mean you are not dependent on Consumes like those "Paladin experts" are preaching about it spilling false infos and lies. .
He never said "no consumes" , but he said that you can do it even without , which mean you are not dependent on Consumes like those "Paladin experts" are preaching about it spilling false infos and lies. .
Yes he did. He said:
A prot Paladin doesn't need to be "too geared" to make it work.
Protadin doesn't need the group to be hyper-aware of not having a taunt.
Protadin is NOT based on consumables.
And realistically you are heavily reliant on consumes and gear. You are definitively wrong.
Why try to lie in a thread that we can just scroll back and read... Dont be dumb.
Eh, not exactly. I've progressed BWL in basically pre-bis gear as a prot paladin and for consumes its no different than a warrior tank stacking his consumes. Just have mana pots and demonic runes at the minimum. Easy to get and farm.
I've tanked as both Warrior and Paladin. Paladins are more comfortable as Off tanks but can still MT a lot of bosses. Warriors are still the go to MT but boring as hell to play at least in my eyes.
Most bosses are taunt immune so whenever I see that argument I roll my eyes.
You get gear as you go. You get most of your big upgrades by AQ40 but you also have to realize that there is a lot of gear that is BoE/Outside raids that outmatch MC gear and are on par with BWL gear. You get a lot of gear from ZG that are superior than BWL gear like Hakkar legs and ZG shield. This is all before you actually face "Challenging" content such as AQ40+
Consumes are easy to farm and using consumables as a argument is pretty hilarious. I don't recommend raiding if you don't want to farm consumes. You can argue that every class is "consume reliant".
This is usually the average consumes I brought to raid as a prot paladin. I was very lazy and was usually drunk every raid but despite that I kept up. 
This is what I brought on my warrior dps to be even taken seriously in raids. I've spent more gold a week as a warrior on consumes for both tanking and DPSing than I ever did on my paladin. 
Just have mana pots and demonic runes at the minimum. Easy to get and farm.
Right. But these are requirements. Even for 5 mans, waiting for a pally tank to drink is cancer. If your group pulls extra adds etc, he will need to use consumes to recover mana quickly and gain threat, where a warrior will not. For many pally tanks, using engineering acts as their primary ranged pull, which also requires consumes. This thread started with a casual player asking for the viability of prot tanking as a casual. Farming consumes so that your class can function adequately means that your class requires consumes. Sitting and drinking in dungeons, slows your group down.
I never had engineering when I played prot since i was the guild armorsmith and I used mining as my main income. I did a lot of things wrong yet was still able to keep up. For 5 mans it sounds like that particular paladin you're talking about is just playing the class wrong. I pull extra mobs to make up for the drinking. You also don't need to mana dump on every pull. I usually never used mana pots and runes in dungeons. Just buy a bunch of mage water and bind it to a key to spam drink asap after combat. Re-pull when you're back to 40-60% mana. I'm talking a 5-6 seconds between pulls.
Still coming off what the OP was asking. He was wanting to know if paladins can tank. Yes they can tank. Even on a casual level. For some reason it always ends in a circle jerk between how viable something is. Its as viable as the person playing makes it to be. Warriors are better tanks, shocker. But its not that much better and frankly I don't know why people get so bent out of shape over it. It's vanilla WoW. This is a casual game to its very core.
He never said "no consumes" , but he said that you can do it even without , which mean you are not dependent on Consumes like those "Paladin experts" are preaching about it spilling false infos and lies. .
Yes he did. He said:
A prot Paladin doesn't need to be "too geared" to make it work.
Protadin doesn't need the group to be hyper-aware of not having a taunt.
Protadin is NOT based on consumables.
And realistically you are heavily reliant on consumes and gear. You are definitively wrong.
Why try to lie in a thread that we can just scroll back and read... Dont be dumb.
And realistically you are heavily reliant on consumes and gear. You are definitively wrong.
Again you are ignoring evidence :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I-Y9vd5mPk
No heavily consumes reliant.
About Gear , ROFL = Yeah sure Naked Warrior will Main Tank Raid Bosses. . You argument made me laughing...