Selexin Stfuppercut lol you guys are actually triggering me. Going oom is a very outdated notion pushed by people putting no effort into making their class work. Ele shaman is the highest dps spec within the hybrids (assuming no flame buffet enh shamans or mightstone pallies are present). Idk if you guys have played on pserver but raids are done VERY fast and are put on farm. These "meme" specs are brought into raids faster than you think, simply because it imposes a challenge. Naturally, if the person under-performs they would get kicked which would be the EXACT same situation if they played a normal spec.
this was posted on the shaman discord and i it think explain it well
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P.S. I am sorry to OP for diverging the convo.
If you do get the chance, I think this video will help shed some light on prot pally tanking in vanilla Gauze.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdNFdBB3GfA
I like Skarm but he really should give Protection a fair chance and put a bit more effort in. It shows that he's an expert at warriors but at best an average paladin.
Killerduki would be a better source but he's hard on the other side of the argument and tends to ignore how much additional stress he pulls on the group just to do what he does. The truth lies somewhere in the middle.
Short summary: Is it viable? Yes. Is it optimal? Hell no.
Can you tank a random elite quest? Sure thing, Specc doesn't matter here. Pop the aggrobuff, retri aura and do what you otherwise would do as dps.
Can you do 5 man dungeons? Yes you can, consecration or full prot will be required or at least reccomended.
Can you do raids? Specific encounters? Yes. Some encounters you can't without putting a large amount of strain on the rest of the raid.
The biggest issue a paladin tank has is he needs to understand threat way better then the average warrior and he's more suspectible to errors.
a) Mana issues:
Mana issues can be reduced with pots, downranking, seal of wisdom, flurry axe/ironfoe and those AQ crafted gloves that give mana on hit. If you're just tanking a 5 man, drink as the rest of the casters and you won't have any issues. You're not in a marathon.
If you don't use judgment on cooldown, only one max rank consecration/encounter and holy shield if available you can last an entire instance without drinking. Your aggro will however be a lot worse then a bear/warrior. So the group needs to focus the main target and may not open with pyroblast POM pyroblast.
b) AOE tanking: If Skarms tactic work for warriors on classic like they do in private servers then paladins will be weaker here.
c)Lack of taunt:
mostly only matters in raids due to multiple tank fights. In 5mans a BoP or HoJ will do the job. Longer cooldowns and different mechanic as taunt, so again, makes it harder then your average fury/arms warrior.
If you don't want to wait for a warrior for 5 mans, pick a paladin and a warlock and do the instance. Once a warrior is available you can always summon him in and switch to DPS/heal. I did this quite often back then but in about 50% of the cases I ended up finishing the instance.
Killerduki would be a better source but he's hard on the other side of the argument and tends to ignore how much additional stress he pulls on the group just to do what he does. The truth lies somewhere in the middle.
I wonder what kind of stress i personally did toward you and did you ever played with me at first in order to claim such claims?!
First play with me before you conclude such silly things.
Exactly what i said on the post above, created this account now.
As for Skarm , i wonder how much people follow his false information about Protection Paladin , when he himself clearly did never ever Main Tank as Paladin 40 man Raid Boss. he doesn't even have any clue how certain fights work as Paladin Protection.
Most important about Skarm is that he obviously doesn't rely on Judgement of Wisdom with Seal of Righteousness as Threat+Mana Regeneration Tool , therefore he claim that Paladins have Mana Issues.
How silly is that.
Killerduki would be a better source but he's hard on the other side of the argument and tends to ignore how much additional stress he pulls on the group just to do what he does. The truth lies somewhere in the middle.
I wonder what kind of stress i personally did toward you and did you ever played with me at first in order to claim such claims?!
First play with me before you conclude such silly things.
I've watched your videos but probably never played with you.
First of all, let me thank you for showing other people that a paladin can tank raid encounters. I very much enjoyed those and I really think it's important to show that it can be done to give paladins a chance instead being laughed out of the room for even suggesting that they can get a mob to hit them and survive the experience.
What I don't like is the general "paladin is best tank" vibe or paladin as a main tank. Because except for some fairly niche situations a warrior will always be the better solution. So at least in my opinion gearing up a paladin to be a maintank will cause difficulties for a raidgroup that a warrior of equal skill and gear wouldn't have.
Back in classic I had for large part of the content the dubious honor of bringing BoSanctuary to the raid. When offtanks where unavailable or their damage was needed more then additional healing I often ended up offtanking. Usually keeping a trashmob busy while the MT tanked the first focus target and then spotted it off me as soon as the raid was done with the first. Shows that getting a tanking set as a paladin is not worthless by any means.
With the new meta changing to loads of fury warriors and paladin tanking being a big no-no I'm kinda scared that this part of the game will be gone outside of guild groups.
Most important about Skarm is that he obviously doesn't rely on Judgement of Wisdom with Seal of Righteousness as Threat+Mana Regeneration Tool , therefore he claim that Paladins have Mana Issues.
Did someone test if this works in the BETA? I'm quite sure that the spelladin crowd tried it and SoR seems to not procc most effects but to my knowledge they didn't try JoW.
What I don't like is the general "paladin is best tank" vibe or paladin as a main tank.
I never said "Paladin is best Tank" , i always been telling that All Tanks are equal , but in diverse ways and do the same thing different way only.
I wonder why Paladin Main Tank would be something you don't like, if i can do it easy then why i wouldn't do it then?
Because except for some fairly niche situations a warrior will always be the better solution.
That's not true , i can count until tomorrow contents where Paladin will do better than Warriors in lots of situation , but that doesn't make them better or worse, it's just how the Game was designed, it was designed to have all fights spread among 3 Tanks (Druid,Paladin,Warrior) equally with pros and cons.
So at least in my opinion gearing up a paladin to be a maintank will cause difficulties for a raidgroup that a warrior of equal skill and gear wouldn't have.
That's entirely wrong and false, Paladin Gearing wont affect much Warrior Gearing with exception of few items like Neck/Trink/Fingers/Cloak/Shield.
Paladin Gearing is Offsets from 20 Mans (Mostly at beginning) and 40 Mans Raids , which mean in 1 week you have twice higher chance to obtain Offset Item as Paladin , while only one chance to obtain Tier Item as Warrior , especially that there are usually 3-4 Warriors competing for same Item!
20 Man Raids reset 2-3 times per week while 40 Man Raids reset 1 time per week. This is what makes Paladin special and have easy access to Gearing up compare to Warriors who do chase Tier Sets mainly .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuIfwHZ5C9I&t=1s
Enjoy in this Video how it work.
With the new meta changing to loads of fury warriors and paladin tanking being a big no-no I'm kinda scared that this part of the game will be gone outside of guild groups.
I wonder what is the "new meta changing" that is a no-no for Paladin , i would rather recall it is HUGE no-no for Fury thanks to Parry Haste and HUGE destruction to Prot Warrior where their Shield Block is going to be removed quickly which will make them a Victims to Crushing Blows and Perhaps Crits (if not def capped) .
Meanwhile Prot Paladins Avoidance is constant thanks to longer duration of Holy Shield and bigger chance to Dodge/Parry between these amount of Blocks leaving Paladin full time with extra 30% block even with Parry Haste.
Did someone test if this works in the BETA? I'm quite sure that the spelladin crowd tried it and SoR seems to not procc most effects but to my knowledge they didn't try JoW.
With or Without SoR proccing JoW , it is still better thanks to Mana it regen and keeping your Mana all the time up , but at the same time Weapon Procs which work (tested on beta) like Flurry Axe or Ironfoe will cause massive amount of Mana Regen thanks to extra swings increased by SoR.
I've watched your videos but probably never played with you.
While i am glad that somehow i tried to be productive with the Videos or tried to help Protection Paladin fans and community to see how it work.
Unfortunately i couldn't record everything in order to give people better Judgement regarding how Paladin Protection work thanks to the bad conditions i was during that period and perhaps today (but not after 20th of September) .
Doesn't mean it was holding anyone back or gave any stress to anyone.
Please next time play with me before you claim stuffs that you never experienced on your own.
And p.s Original Classic is not Private Servers, which mean you are going to witness HUGE difference between Paladin Tanking in Classic vs Private Servers , where in Classic stuffs are going to be 4 times easier for Paladin Tanks thanks to fixed stuffs that work properly where in Pservers are bugged and causing Paladin to be unable to Tank.
Keep in mind the fact that Mobs and Bosses did 4 times higher damage done toward Tanks in Private Servers giving them massive amount of Rage generation , while in Classic original they would do 3-4 times lower damage compare to Pservers.
Not only that Warriors Rage generation is going to cause BIG stress for their threat and their Group for making low amount of Aggro , but also damage reduced is going to be much lesser due to how Defense Stance work versus Paladins 30% extra Block Value which is unaffected by such change.
So for Example, Warrior in Pserver by Enraged Chromagus eating 4-5k damage = 500 damage reduced by Def Stance + 100 damage reduced by Block Value , Warrior in Original by Enraged Chromaggus is going to eat 1k Damage = 100 damage reduced by Def Stance + 100 Damage reduced by Block Value.
Paladin in both scenarios is going to have 135 Damage reduced.
P.s This was comparison between Chromagus Enraged in both Pservers and Original most known as hard hitting Boss against Tank during Enrage period.
Now for the "medium and weaker non enraged bosses" , Paladin will be on slight advantage compare to Warrior thanks to the constant Block Value vs Warrior reducing the damage reduction thanks to low damage income.
Keep in mind the fact that Mobs and Bosses did 4 times higher damage done toward Tanks in Private Servers giving them massive amount of Rage generation , while in Classic original they would do 3-4 times lower damage compare to Pservers.
Can you provide a source for this piece of info? Not because I don't believe you, but because I want to know what else might be different.
Keep in mind the fact that Mobs and Bosses did 4 times higher damage done toward Tanks in Private Servers giving them massive amount of Rage generation , while in Classic original they would do 3-4 times lower damage compare to Pservers.
Can you provide a source for this piece of info? Not because I don't believe you, but because I want to know what else might be different.
https://youtu.be/bPFEdkX_WY8?t=293
Footage from Beta Library Tanking at level 40 with poor Gear, mobs does 35-50 damage.
This is me Nostalrius/Elysium/Lighthope Tanking at level 40 with good Gear, mobs does 100-120 damage.
Nothing better than pure Evidence.
Yes, I know warriors are better at tanking, but with the right gear and spec nowadays, is it possible?
Thanks!
It's possible for a mage to be the tank with enough healers and stamina gear, it's just not optimal. I hope this helps you conceptualize this in the simplest way.
Yes, I know warriors are better at tanking, but with the right gear and spec nowadays, is it possible?
Thanks!
It's possible for a mage to be the tank with enough healers and stamina gear, it's just not optimal. I hope this helps you conceptualize this in the simplest way.
But mage will never be able to survive Bosses like Maexxna , Melee Twins, Chromagus. While Paladin can do.
I really dont see what your own propaganda is trying to achieve, but whatever , this is reality of how everyday trolls ruin everyone who want to try and enjoy playing paladin protection , by telling them such spins, lies and false information like you did.
Normally for raids, Warriors get time to build rage and get x sunders on the target before DPS jumps in. Would that similar amount of time not be enough for Paladins to keep aggro in raids. Most classes have an aggro reduction skill, but yes, no taunt is kind of a bummer. As I have never played a Paladin before in classic, do they run out of mana that quick in fights trying to keep aggro? Even with the correct gear and talent optimization, they would be oom before any boss is defeated in MC?
It would be enough.
You can't say a Pally tank will run completely OOM until a boss dies, because it depends on what he's tanking. These days, even fresh pre-raid groups are able to down bosses under three minutes. The mana problem starts only when a fight goes on for longer than usual. When off-tanking something that isn't taking damage, for example the hounds at Golemagg, you don't even need to spend all your mana to generate threat.
One solution is to farm up on consumables.
Demonic/Dark Runes and Mana pots will solve the mana issues.
Crystal Charges/Goblin Sapper Charges, Oil of Immolation and Dragonbreath Chilli can generate additional threat at no mana cost. Beware that these deal fire damage.
As for running dungeons and people not going OOM vs. Paladin going OOM, it's simple. Paladins' best threat generating ability is Consecration. It's an AoE, and costs a lot of mana, whereas your healer and DPS usually use single-target spells, which cost less mana. So not only you have less mana to begin with, you are using AoE spells even when single-target tanking.
The solution here is to utilize this strong point of the Paladin tank. Organize groups with AoE capabilities and destroy multiple packs at once (start small and increase the amount pulled based on your gear and your healer's gear). FTHforever described this approach as "AoE Bombing" in his guide here: https://barrens.chat/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=1480
Another thing is that most people don't want to use mana pots in a dungeon when pally tanking. Get into PvP so you can buy Combat Mana Potions, they cost only a few silver pieces and you can replenish at a vendor after every dungeon.
Telling that you are going to be Oom after 3 minutes is entirely wrong.
Here is Video of me doing constant max threats as full def gear on Target Dummy for 7 minutes and still not getting Oom. Including the fact that there was no Druids for Innervates or Priest for Power infusion in order to get more Mana.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wE1viI_FZRo
As for 5 man Dungeons , on trash mobs use Seal an Judgement of wisdom , you will be able always to spam Max Ranks Consecrations without getting Oom and clear the Dungeon really fast!
So you dont really need Bombs or whatever on you, but i agree they are useful too, but not mandatory for being effective.
Bosses use JoW and SoR as on the Video and Mana issue solved.
Only those who dont know how Paladin Protection work are going to tell you that Mana is an issue , which in reality is not if you know how to play, regardless of Boss fight or how long fight is.
Exactly what i said on the post above, created this account now.
As for Skarm , i wonder how much people follow his false information about Protection Paladin , when he himself clearly did never ever Main Tank as Paladin 40 man Raid Boss. he doesn't even have any clue how certain fights work as Paladin Protection.
Most important about Skarm is that he obviously doesn't rely on Judgement of Wisdom with Seal of Righteousness as Threat+Mana Regeneration Tool , therefore he claim that Paladins have Mana Issues.
How silly is that.
mana issues in 2019? that's hilarious
Yes, I know warriors are better at tanking, but with the right gear and spec nowadays, is it possible?
Thanks!
It's possible for a mage to be the tank with enough healers and stamina gear, it's just not optimal. I hope this helps you conceptualize this in the simplest way.
But mage will never be able to survive Bosses like Maexxna , Melee Twins, Chromagus. While Paladin can do.
I really dont see what your own propaganda is trying to achieve, but whatever , this is reality of how everyday trolls ruin everyone who want to try and enjoy playing paladin protection , by telling them such spins, lies and false information like you did.
As a raid mage tank myself, their hard "cap" or limit is very situational since they need a constant application of Flame Buffet. Best case scenario they can tank t'ill ZG and naturally there are some bosses here and there they SIMPLY can't tank.
Hello,
I know this post is a few days old already and perhaps you got the answers you are looking for. I will still just share some experiences with you nevertheless and hope you find it useful.
Like you, I was seriously curious about paladin tanking and I decided to test it on the retro wow servers. I found the lack of taunt to be the least problematic of all. Same goes for threat, at least initially. You will build initial threat quite fast, perhaps even faster than warriors and druids. You will also soon discover you are the king of aoe tanking. However, that's where the pros end in my experience. Like many have already pointed out, mana is a huge problem unless you sacrifice gear with defensive stats for int/mp5 gear. In a way you have to do that after all to utilize your redoubt talent. I'd say if you are serious about it, you will do great for dungeons (especially for strat and scholo) and you will be decent offtank for raids, especially on trash and bosses with aoe adds.
I found this guide to be very useful on the matter. The author, Krynn, argues too that you should sacrifice gear with defensive stats and stack stamina/intellect instead to get the most out of your talents:
https://forum.elysium-project.org/topic/36966-a-guide-to-paladin-tanking-3132006-by-krynn/
Good luck!
//Xaldron