Paladin tanking doesn't slow groups down.
It does, because they need to drink. Constantly.
All mana classes need to drink. Constantly. I'm pretty sure you already know that, but somehow nobody's bitching at drinking unless you're a pally tank. Why? Did you never have to wait for the healer to get his mana back? Or are you perhaps basing this claim on watching Skarm's video that you linked on page 1?
A prot Paladin doesn't need to be "too geared" to make it work.
They do in comparison to other tanks. They are less efficient.
Please provide me an example. In which statistic is the Palatank less efficient? And which pieces of gear make up for this assumed lack of efficiency?
Protadin doesn't need the group to be hyper-aware of not having a taunt.
They do because taunts are a reactionary ability to allow the tank to re-establish threat. This is important for mobs with threat dumps and on encounters where the tank is temporarily stunned or CC'd and needs to retake threat. You will lose threat.
You don't need a taunt, if you don't lose threat.
So, in raids, the usual thing is to A) have everyone know the boss tactics BEFORE the raid even begins, or B) tell the tactics just before you engage the fight. Therefore, the raid group is already aware if the boss has a mechanic for reducing/dropping threat, and should be acting according to it. There is no extra awareness involved just because the tank is a Paladin. Several bosses are also immune to taunt completely.
For cases of NOT preparing prior, for example Doctor Theolen Krastinov in Scholomance is known for using a knockdown stun which reduces threat. I have succesfully tanked the Doctor, without losing aggro, as a Retribution spec in pre-raid gear. No improved RF, no Blessing of Sanctuary and no Holy Shield. Killerduki has a video of him, where he tells the group to go MAX DPS on said boss, but the group is paranoid so they wait with damage. And the reason for that is bad tanks and posts like yours.
Whether a group member jumps you on threat or an extra pack is pulled, taunt is important. This is a huge issue for prot paladins. Groups make mistakes and taunt allows you to mitigate loss, without it you are depending on others to play without error; this is unrealistic.
If an extra pack is pulled, you simply position yourself properly and pop Consecration. You will take aggro automatically. Judge Righteousness if it was an actual misfire. But if you're thinking, for example, that a Mage casts Flamestrike into an unaggroed mobpack while you're fighting another mobpack, then the Mage is an idiot and should be warned/kicked out of the dungeon group. If someone does such a thing in a Raid, then it's even worse.
If an accidental pull happens in a Raid, the response is the same - position yourself between the mob and the raid and you take aggro easily. Moreover, raid group always has multiple tanks, even plate wearers, that can also deal with the extra pulls until a tank takes them.
This isn't there only issue though... They have no ranged ability. Exorcism for demons and undead and then judgement on 10 yards range??? So you depend on your group to setup your line of sight pulls? Handing off a tanking responsibility to others and depending on them to take a portion of your responsibility so that you can be a snowflake? This is the part where you tell me you will use engineering and then I tell you that grenades are consumables... See comment below.
Please provide an example, where the Protection Paladin cannot setup a line of sight pull and NEEDS someone from the party to do it for him.
Protadin is NOT based on consumables.
Yes they are. HIGHLY based on consumables in fact. You dont plan on using dark runes or mana pots and youre going to play a prot paladin? No engineering? Any of the other pallies in here want to back this guy up? I have heard some wild things in this thread but nothing quite that wild.
Here is a tankadin guide.
https://www.warcrafttavern.com/guides/tankadin-guide-playing-as-a-protection-paladin-in-wow-classic/
First four points on the guide include:
Most people will think you’re completely useless.
Use all consumables that you can.
Soulforge is not good for any spec PVE.
You have to be VERY dedicated to even have a chance at making this work.
Even people who are writing guides in support of this class, disagree with you. You are insane if you think you can play a prot pally without consumes.
Oh I see. Some idiot wrote bullshit in his guide, and you took his statement as a fact. LOL :lol: Good job. Nope, that's not how it works :lol:
Consumables
Also I am going to put a list of consumables you NEED to use to even be good raiding. If you raid without these you will be bad. I am warning you.
The EXTREME MINIMUM amount you will need.
So, the "extreme minimum" to tank raid bosses is apparently a Flask, four Elixir-type consumables, 16 stamina food, full stack of Runes and Major mana potions. Care to explain Stfuppercut how was killerduki able to tank raid bosses in his videos NOT using all these listed consumables? For example his Magmadar video, where he's using a single elixir from the list, no flask, no other consumables, no potion, no dark rune.
Killerduki is correct in saying that you're throwing statements left and right, but describing only YOUR anecdotal experience or some unconfirmed general consensus as the proof of your statements.
Hearing that your spec sucks isnt easy. It wont be easy for prot pallys the entire time they are playing. It wont be easy to know that you are replaceable and that most people will feel uncomfortable investing gear into a suboptimal tank. In a perfect world paladins would be as good as warriors, but they are not. They are viable but they are far from optimal. They wont be worth playing for the majority of users. That being said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and I look forward to tracking Duki's progress as his guild advances through Classic :lol: . Additionally, I am okay with being the voice of reason in this thread to protect a would-be prot paladin who doesn't know any better from investing time into a spec that is very bad.
It's not my spec. I won't even be playing a Paladin :biggrin: The next part of your paragraph is just restating your misconceptions without providing proof, so I'll ignore it.
For the final sentence about being the "voice of reason". I believe that a voice of reason should be asking important questions regarding the topic, and guiding the discussion in search of the truth. So far, you haven't been doing that. You've been writing statements without personal experience on the matter and without supporting your statements with facts and examples.
@Stfuppercut Please provide actual evidence and examples for your claims:
- How much faster is a group of the same composition using a Warrior tank compared to using a Paladin tank?
- How much better gear does a Paladin tank require to "make it work" than a Warrior tank?
- What exactly does the group need to be aware of because of having a Paladin tank?
- Which consumables are the neccessity for Paladin tanking?
Some of this can be found in the guide I linked. I'll be honest, I googled paladin guide and clicked the first link. I'm not going to invest a lot of time into explaining why prot pallies are trash, because they are.
If you don't want to invest time into learning about Protection Paladins tanking, then why are you in this topic? We didn't exactly ask for your presence, or to be a "voice of reason" either. You took the role of your own volition, so you should be prepared to spend time performing in the role you choose.
I've played with quite a few and none were very good. None are listed very high on parses from private. No serious guilds bring prot paladins.
Sorry, but personal experience from having one in a party doesn't really reflect what a class spec can do.
I don't know where exactly should a Protection Paladin be listed "very high", as the only first place he wants to be in is the threat meter.
Each guild has the right to choose their setup. Add the fact that there is usually enough Prot warriors even if just a side-spec for a DPS player, that there's considerably less Tankadins in all of the pallies, that there's these bullshit guides like the one you posted, and finally add the stigma of having a non-healer Paladin because of some unfounded general consensus. Yeah, it seems pretty normal that you won't find many guilds with prot paladins.
A warrior can pull so long as his healer has mana. A paladin is more concerned with his own mana and will take more time drinking than the healer does, in this way a prot paladin makes the group less efficient.
A paladin healer is also concerned more with his own mana, than for example with the DPS's mana. How does that make a prot paladin less efficient? Please explain, because that really doesn't make any sense. About "taking more time drinking", Tankadin has much smaller mana pool, so if anything, he will take LESS time drinking than a healer or a DPS when the party is drinking.
Again, if you're basing this on Skarm's video, well, it depends on the Paladin. There are smart paladins who will try to use their resources in a smart way. And then there's Skarm, who uses Holy Shield on Baroness Anastari, a miniboss that keeps casting spells almost permanently. If you waste your mana, you will need to drink, but that's true for any mana class, not just for Tankadins.
The group needs to be aware of the short comings of a protadin. For example prot pallies generate a TON of their threat by BEING hit, which causes issues when they LOSE threat. They don't have a taunt and due to mana constraints can have issues pulling threat again.
Oh? Have you perhaps done the math on that?
I didn't. But last time I checked, the only threat you generate by being hit is Holy Shield and Blessing of Sanctuary threat. You get that ONLY when you block, which is a kinda low chance, so that's a pretty unreliable source of threat. And also much lower compared to Consecration or Judgement.
When Classic rolls around you boys can tell me how much success you've had. You aren't going to reinvent the wheel... Prot paladins are bad. Can you MAKE them viable? Sure. No one will be begging for prot pallies in their groups or raids though. The best outcome you could have is to create a guild like Duki and surround yourself with enablers who carry you. Without the support of others, this spec falls on its face. My evidence is 15 years of collective community player experience that leads the majority of the community to scoffing at this spec. If you want to play a prot paladin, PLAY IT! Dont try to justify your suboptimal and selfish actions.
Prot paladins are NOT bad.
If all you've ever met was a random Palatank once in a blue moon, and the person was a Skarm-like tankadin, then your "15 years of collective community player experience" amounts to almost NO experience at all. It's very visible on the blizzard forums, where the "Spelladin" spec appeared, here in 2019, and was also met with the same trash talk and disbelief from people who probably never even had the chance to see that spec in action. But they still said it's bad, when it isn't. It's the stigma of the community, not really the issue of the spec.
@killerduki Did you even watch the Ony video you posted? The paladin did horrible... He used a TON of consumes. He almost died a handful of times and was carried by the healers as a meme! They just spammed him with heals while he slowly auto attacked lol. The video ENDS as Ony goes into air phase? Are you so inexperienced that you dont even know what you are watching? This was not a full encounter... This was not a clean encounter and that was NOT a good representation of a prot pally tanking.
You would know that Grievous was a well-known fella on his server. I believe they called him "Grievous Christ" because of how he was famous. The onyxia video is one of his stunts. As I stated in my earlier response, there are NO DPS players on that raid, only healers and a Tankadin, and the goal is not to defeat Onyxia, but to create a meme of Grievous fighting a raidboss.
Man this was a freakin long write.
edit: fixed final three quotations
And you NEVER EVER provided a single Evidence about your Claims telling that Paladins not being Optimal, but therefore you screech all the time about it and derailing this very Productive Topic about Protection Paladin.....
"Reality" .
My evidence is Cystheen and Skarm but you say that doesn't count. While you demand evidence, and there is a WIDE body of evidence to indicate that prot pallys are awful (namely that no one plays them or brings them to raids) you also dismiss those who disagree with you. You call them noobs... Yet you yourself play a sub optimal spec, so your judgement is questionable at best.
"Doesn't count" or "Being Noob At something" are 2 different things.
Those 2 Preachers are Noobs , but they are Popular , so "They must be Valid" . ..
https://youtu.be/WdNFdBB3GfA?t=428
Skarm Words about "OOM"
"You can't hit maximum Consecration each 8 seconds" .
Now here is Video Evidence of me which proves him wrong and noob :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ov8R8jFndSE&t=1s
Spamming Max Rank Consecration and being far from OOM.
As for Cystheen "Site" who base all his facts from "Feenix" Private Servers with all the broken Abilities,Wrong Scripts ,Bugs (Consumes list) .
https://youtu.be/iuIfwHZ5C9I?t=1770
Disapproving Cystheen with educational explanation why !
Psojed you weren't even aware that prot pallies were consume heavy. You have some guides to read before we can continue this conversation. Your exact quote was that "Protadin is NOT based on consumables." Get outta here.
Because they aren't, silly :lol:
I gave you an example, killerduki tanking Magmadar, using no consumables during the fight.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCXN5Qo07dA&t=1s
blah232
Published on May 3, 2006
Protection Paladin Main Tanking Onyxia , you can see the Video (His Spells and Abilites was from PRE 1.9 Patch).
That mean Pre 1.9 Patch = Hardmode Onyxia , NO AQ.
It's a meme video for Grievous, duki :) There are no DPS on that fight.
a lot of forum members and pserver/classic players are not going to come around to accept "meme specs".
Healer Rogue is a meme spec. Protection Paladin is not a meme spec. I hope you understand the difference :wink:
You'll notice the quotation marks around "meme spec" as I quote others in the thread and forums.
Because they aren't, silly :lol:
I gave you an example, killerduki tanking Magmadar, using no consumables during the fight.
Ugggghhh... Your brain is SOOOO dumb. I clicked the video reluctantly, looked at the top right of the screen. Consumables. Clearly has a Greater Arcane Elixir up. "No consumables"? Why are you even arguing anymore. At least make a compelling argument... Example of a compelling argument: "He didn't have to use a mana pot during his Magmadar encounter etc etc etc". This would be weak, because Mag is a super easy fight, but at least it would be a talking point. Instead, you just boldly state that there are NO CONSUMABLES being used. Within 2 seconds of looking at the video, you're wrong. Do you even understand what a consumable is? Stop trying to pipe up and jump to Duki's aid, you're actually making him look bad. Stop... Take a breather. Think about what you want to say and then contribute to the conversation in a meaningful way. You're both so emotional that you aren't looking at this objectively. Prot paladins are suboptimal. No one here is advocating that you cant tank as a prot paladin. I am saying that it is not worth it. If you disagree and think that it IS worth it, you should play one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I-Y9vd5mPk
Look at the top right of the screen. Thats where your buffs are listed.
Greater Arcane Elixir is a consumable.
https://classicdb.ch/?item=13454
2 seconds into the video I stopped watching. Thats how long it took me to derail your point. For all I know more consumes were used, but thats about as much effort as I am willing to put in to pat you on the head and settle you down.
Oh, but I did indeed notice the Greater Arcane Elixir. I mentioned it in the longpost. And I did indeed make a compelling argument.
I used this video as an example to debunk YOUR claim that Tankadin is consume-heavy. The video clearly proves that you don't need to consume ANYTHING during a raid boss fight.
In my longpost, I used the video to debunk the claim from the Tankadin guide you linked, which states that using a flask, four elixirs, food and both runes and major mana potions is the "EXTREME MINIMUM" to be able to tank in a raid. Again, the video clearly shows that you can tank just fine, even while using only one elixir from the list of "extreme minimum" of consumables.
Please kindly read my posts before you try to reply to them.
Because they aren't, silly :lol:
I gave you an example, killerduki tanking Magmadar, using no consumables during the fight.
Ugggghhh... Your brain is SOOOO dumb. I clicked the video reluctantly, looked at the top right of the screen. Consumables. Clearly has a Greater Arcane Elixir up. "No consumables"? Why are you even arguing anymore. At least make a compelling argument... Example of a compelling argument: "He didn't have to use a mana pot during his Magmadar encounter etc etc etc". This would be weak, because Mag is a super easy fight, but at least it would be a talking point. Instead, you just boldly state that there are NO CONSUMABLES being used. Within 2 seconds of looking at the video, you're wrong. Do you even understand what a consumable is? Stop trying to pipe up and jump to Duki's aid, you're actually making him look bad. Stop... Take a breather. Think about what you want to say and then contribute to the conversation in a meaningful way. You're both so emotional that you aren't looking at this objectively. Prot paladins are suboptimal. No one here is advocating that you cant tank as a prot paladin. I am saying that it is not worth it. If you disagree and think that it IS worth it, you should play one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I-Y9vd5mPk
Look at the top right of the screen. Thats where your buffs are listed.
Greater Arcane Elixir is a consumable.
https://classicdb.ch/?item=13454
2 seconds into the video I stopped watching. Thats how long it took me to derail your point. For all I know more consumes were used, but thats about as much effort as I am willing to put in to pat you on the head and settle you down.
Single Elixir wont change much or nothing at all , especially as it can be seen on the Video threat was by huge margins higher than the Raid Group threat. So with or without that Elixir, the kill would have been done and nothing would be changed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoAFJtXH70c
Here is your Skarm using shit tons of Consumables as Warrior Tank.
Makes your point suboptimal.
Yes they are. HIGHLY based on consumables in fact. You dont plan on using dark runes or mana pots and youre going to play a prot paladin? No engineering? Any of the other pallies in here want to back this guy up? I have heard some wild things in this thread but nothing quite that wild.
Bolded for emphasis on what I believe Stfuppercut was really getting at here.
Here is your Skarm using shit tons of Consumables as Warrior Tank.
I see buff type consumes, but I never saw any engineering, pots, or any of the special items on his bar meant for emergencies or special situations go on CD. If I missed something please point me to the area in the video that he used them.
But as for the buff consumes, if you look to the end of the video you'll see that he wears them even when he is in Full T3 on his real tank. Dreadnaught versus Molten Core is a joke, but he's got them on anyway. Why? Because the dude plays his best 100% of the time, clearly.
If "big" Skarm is wearing Consumes without needing them, how are we to know if Lilskarm needs them? He had all his special consumes in his bags and never reached for them. Some of which, by the way, a Prot Pally could never use such as the Limited Invulnerability pots because the Pally would be chugging mana pots, non-optionally and on a regular basis every fight along with dark runes and anything else they could get their hands on. Same with engi items: they have to pull. They're not for special cases, they're for all the time.
And while I would love to find a video of a Warrior tanking without any type of consume, buff or CD use, it likely doesn't exist for the same reason that there is next to no talk of mages trying to raid with Arcane Missles as their primary DPS method. The people who play these classes don't play them to roll janky half baked combos, they play them to do their best.
Single Elixir wont change much or nothing at all , especially as it can be seen on the Video threat was by huge margins higher than the Raid Group threat. So with or without that Elixir, the kill would have been done and nothing would be changed.
WTH you have THUNDERFURY ON! No duh the threat was high.
And also you are clearly demonstrating my earlier point that you need Dwarf Priests for fear ward: you are requiring other people to min/max so that you don't have to.
An extremely selfish outlook. Ordinarily you require min/maxing because you already are and want to be with like-minded people, not because you need them to carry you.
Yes they are. HIGHLY based on consumables in fact. You dont plan on using dark runes or mana pots and youre going to play a prot paladin? No engineering? Any of the other pallies in here want to back this guy up? I have heard some wild things in this thread but nothing quite that wild.
Bolded for emphasis on what I believe @Stfuppercut was really getting at here.
I am still waiting for his reply to my longpost. But seeing he reacted to your post but didn't bother to provide examples I asked for, I believe we can safely ignore Stfuppercut's statements.
Tankadins do NOT require using ANY mana potions or runes. Using them is OPTIONAL, not mandatory.
Tankadin uses Judgement of Wisdom to replenish mana during a long fight.
Yes they are. HIGHLY based on consumables in fact. You dont plan on using dark runes or mana pots and youre going to play a prot paladin? No engineering? Any of the other pallies in here want to back this guy up? I have heard some wild things in this thread but nothing quite that wild.
Bolded for emphasis on what I believe @Stfuppercut was really getting at here.
Here is your Skarm using shit tons of Consumables as Warrior Tank.
I see buff type consumes, but I never saw any engineering, pots, or any of the special items on his bar meant for emergencies or special situations go on CD. If I missed something please point me to the area in the video that he used them.
But as for the buff consumes, if you look to the end of the video you'll see that he wears them even when he is in Full T3 on his real tank. Dreadnaught versus Molten Core is a joke, but he's got them on anyway. Why? Because the dude plays his best 100% of the time, clearly.
If "big" Skarm is wearing Consumes without needing them, how are we to know if Lilskarm needs them? He had all his special consumes in his bags and never reached for them. Some of which, by the way, a Prot Pally could never use such as the Limited Invulnerability pots because the Pally would be chugging mana pots, non-optionally and on a regular basis every fight along with dark runes and anything else they could get their hands on. Same with engi items: they have to pull. They're not for special cases, they're for all the time.
And while I would love to find a video of a Warrior tanking without any type of consume, buff or CD use, it likely doesn't exist for the same reason that there is next to no talk of mages trying to raid with Arcane Missles as their primary DPS method. The people who play these classes don't play them to roll janky half baked combos, they play them to do their best.
Some of which, by the way, a Prot Pally could never use such as the Limited Invulnerability pots because the Pally would be chugging mana pots, non-optionally and on a regular basis every fight along with dark runes and anything else they could get their hands on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IPir_IouQ8
Armor Pot used , without Thunderfury Tanking and using Flurry Axe (no stats , no stamina) , which also proving you wrong here about it.
Only food and Armor Pot used and that's all.
Unlike me with Pre Raid Blue BiS , Skarm used shit tons of Consumed wearing T3 Gear.
Single Elixir wont change much or nothing at all , especially as it can be seen on the Video threat was by huge margins higher than the Raid Group threat. So with or without that Elixir, the kill would have been done and nothing would be changed.
WTH you have THUNDERFURY ON! No duh the threat was high.
And also you are clearly demonstrating my earlier point that you need Dwarf Priests for fear ward: you are requiring other people to min/max so that you don't have to.
An extremely selfish outlook. Ordinarily you require min/maxing because you already are and want to be with like-minded people, not because you need them to carry you.
And also you are clearly demonstrating my earlier point that you need Dwarf Priests for fear ward: you are requiring other people to min/max so that you don't have to.
Even Warriors are using Dwarf Priests or as Horde Shamans for removing Fears, Raid is composed with 40 People and everyone (including min/max) are using them!
Your point is here to Troll as it seems , while me as Protection paladin needs a Dwarf priest for fear ward, Warriors do need Paladins for extra Resistance , so he also requiring other people to min/max either!
Even Warriors are using Dwarf Priests
As a matter of both min/maxing and convinience they use them. A.K.A. NO prot pallies because they are sub-optimal. Ordinary as well as hard-core guilds can get by without them if need be. Prot Pallies? No way around it, you need Dwarf Priests to tank Magmadar.
Horde Shamans for removing Fears
There is no spec or race of shaman that is barred from acquiring Tremor Totem.
while me as Protection paladin needs a Dwarf priest for fear ward, Warriors do need Paladins for extra Resistance , so he also requiring other people to min/max either!
The warrior is min/maxing so there is nothing wrong with him asking others to do the same.
Furthermore, bringing Paladins to the raid wouldn't qualify as min/maxing. That's called normal.