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Classic 40-man Raid Composition

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Selexin
(@selexin)
Posts: 969
Prominent Member
 

Taladrils druid tanking guide (which you should read OP)

Shout-out to one of the best and most realistic Druid Tanking guides (or just guides in general). He is skilled, experienced, yet completely realistic with his guide. This shit is a bible for tanking druids.

 
Posted : 08/09/2019 4:55 pm
(@forsakenone)
Posts: 213
Estimable Member
 

Taladrils druid tanking guide (which you should read OP)

Shout-out to one of the best and most realistic Druid Tanking guides (or just guides in general). He is skilled, experienced, yet completely realistic with his guide. This shit is a bible for tanking druids.
All hail Taladril (mandatory homework for mr Midoo).

 
Posted : 09/09/2019 12:20 pm
(@scribblz)
Posts: 19
Active Member
 

It seems like most of the people who write guides, do so without having actually play tested anything they write about. After hearing Caperfin say Thunderfury wasn't a good tank weapon, or that it was overrated and then seeing his dungeon cleave guide, I'm starting to think that most of the people who are drawn to writing guides are those who cant really achieve much in the game so they find fulfillment in talking about achieving things in the game. Of course there are incredible guides out there, like Taladrils druid tanking guide (which you should read OP), but most of these guides are complete and utter garbage. They are just a random notepad full of ideas that an intermediate player thinks are important based on their own perspective from raiding... Some of these guides are based on raw theorycrafting and speculation and have never even been tested. If you havent played at the highest level and if you havent mastered a craft, you shouldnt be trying to write guides, because you probably dont know what youre talking about and you will inevitably do a lot more harm than good.

You can say this was not intended to be the "holy bible" but then what was it intended for? It is a guide. You labeled it a guide. Yet the post doesnt guide anyone... Its just awful and riddled with inaccuracy. And then you say that a guide like this requires community feedback? Why? Guides like this already exist. Theyre accurate. Written by knowledgeable players and dont require being rewritten. I could wipe my ass on a piece of paper and call it a guide and then post it here asking the community to give me feedback so that it turns into the perfect raid composition guide but why would the community help? The foundation of the guide is a streak of feces on a piece of paper. No one should bother putting feedback into this. We need some better criteria for what should/can be considered a "guide" in my opinion. As a community we should actively avoid supporting these "guides" because they cause grief in the greater community by misinforming players who need guidance and cant separate fact from fiction on their own because they lack experience.

Holy moly, speaking the harsh truth. (Not sarcasm)

 
Posted : 10/09/2019 1:10 pm
(@stfuppercut)
Posts: 1228
Noble Member
 

Holy moly, speaking the harsh truth. (Not sarcasm)

Thats sort of my role these days.

 
Posted : 10/09/2019 1:56 pm
(@teebling)
Posts: 1611
Noble Member
 

Holy moly, speaking the harsh truth. (Not sarcasm)

Thats sort of my role these days.

You could have taken the time to guide Midoo to better answers or help him see what the issues are and by doing that helped him become a better player, and possibly help everyone else reading this topic too, leading everyone to learn something new.

He asked for feedback and instead you liken his attempt to feces using vulgar and condescending language and a show of poor manners.

Yeah, way to go man, you really showed him!

 
Posted : 10/09/2019 3:35 pm
(@stfuppercut)
Posts: 1228
Noble Member
 

Yeah, way to go man, you really showed him!

Still mad about my critique on your moderation? No need to hunt for my "poor manners", just ban me on the spot if you're unhappy with my presence on the forums. I've told you before that I'm not willing to censor myself via private messages. That has not changed.

 
Posted : 10/09/2019 3:41 pm
(@teebling)
Posts: 1611
Noble Member
 

Yeah, way to go man, you really showed him!

Still mad about my critique on your moderation? No need to hunt for my "poor manners", just ban me on the spot if you're unhappy with my presence on the forums. I've told you before that I'm not willing to censor myself via private messages. That has not changed.

Why can’t you just help people who are clearly trying instead of looking down your nose at them?

If you want a ban for being a silly mug then I’ll give you what you ask for but I want to know first why you post things like that?

Just because it’s easier than trying or because it makes you feel good about yourself? Why?

 
Posted : 10/09/2019 3:53 pm
(@stfuppercut)
Posts: 1228
Noble Member
 

Why can’t you just help people who are clearly trying instead of looking down your nose at them?

If you want a ban for being a silly mug then I’ll give you what you ask for but I want to know first why you post things like that?

Just because it’s easier than trying or because it makes you feel good about yourself? Why?

I think that is a bit disingenuous. I do help people who need it. I dont coddle people Gnoll, Monarch and Duki who are a net loss to the site and I like to highlight their ignorance because I believe its important to question their credibility. In the same vein I question players like Caperfin who do an overall net harm by spreading misinformation. I dont mind being a bit abrasive if it serves to inform players or prevent people from being misinformed. In Monarchs case, the guy is a terror on the site and has big ideas about how the game should be played or how it should be developed. just like Gnoll. In this circumstance highlight this is important to inform people that this is not a valuable source of information. In this specific circumstance, a user has built a 40 man raid comp guide, but it isnt valuable. He clearly has no raid experience, so making this guide does harm to the community for would-be users who aim to use this "tool" to guide their raid teams.

But you already know I post quality posts, as you've said in the past. You just dont like being criticized and thats fine. Bringing the awful posters down a peg does nothing for me, but it does help to police the forums a bit, which this site desperately needs. So I do my part. Some call this mean, others abrasive, cyber bullying... I like to think of it as peer review. These posts are low quality and I aim to highlight the reasons that they are low quality and I question the source who is giving the information. Without people like me calling BS, the forum would be flooded with trash guides made by players who have not raided... It would be a silo of ignorance.

 
Posted : 10/09/2019 6:04 pm
(@roadblock)
Posts: 56
Trusted Member
 

Why?
He's never heard of Wheaton's Law.

That said the OP felt the need to copy paste his reply in another thread verbatim, so he put himself in a position of "look at me, I'm making guides".
The same information was present in an ongoing thread and could receive feedback and corrections there in a conversational manner.

Now would I be all douchey about it myself? Absolutely not.
But there is a kind of conceit here.. guides are supposed to add or collate useful information.
Statements like this In case you're not an autonomous person, here's a mathematically perfect raid group that should be functional for most encounters in the face of the quality of information preceding it are ridiculous.

 
Posted : 10/09/2019 6:15 pm
Selexin
(@selexin)
Posts: 969
Prominent Member
 

Here is a completely uninformed Horde raid group for Molten Core I have just made up because it’s fun – this is not BiS and I won’t ever claim to be able to formulate the perfect raid composition:

  • Prot Warrior, Fury Prot Warrior, Feral Druid, Shadow Priest, Warlock (Tank/OTs with imp blood pact and vampiric embrace heals)

  • Prot Warrior, Feral Druid, Fury Warrior, Rogue, Resto Shaman (Threat/Melee Group)

  • Imp WF Shaman, Fury Warrior, Fury Warrior, Combat Rogue, Combat Rogue (Windfury group)

  • DPS Feral Druid, GoA Totem Enh Shaman, Trueshot Aura Hunter, Dagger Rogue, BM Hunter with Wolf Pet for Furious Howl (Non-windury group)

  • 4 Mages, Boomkin Druid (Mages with crit aura)

  • 4 Mages, Warlock (Caster group)

  • 4 holy Priests, Resto Shaman for mana tide (Healing group)

  • Warlock, Resto Druid, 2 Holy Priests, Resto Shaman for mana tide (Healing/caster group)
  • All up:
    8 Mages (Frost/Arcane for MC)
    7 Priests (6 Holy priests, 1 Shadow)
    6 Warriors (Prot & Fury)
    5 Shamans (Totems, Totems, Totems! Also Chain heal for melee groups)
    5 Druids (innervates, brez, crit auras)
    4 Rogues (combat rogues for windfury, dagger rogue for agi group)
    3 Warlocks (banishes and curses)
    2 Hunters (enough for tranq shot? Also furious howl and trueshot aura for non windfury group)

    Thoughts? I really like the idea of a non-windury Agi/AP group - I would like to see this one in action with the improved Grace of Air totem providing huge benefits to the other members. Enh shaman can apply windfury weap to his own weap and dropping Grace of Air to benefit remainder of group. Prob a 0/30/21 shaman to still have healing/NS capabilities and not taking up debuff slot with Stormstrike. Imp GoA totem provides 88 agi to the group which for a feral druid is 4+% crit and even 3% for a rogue, who is also getting 3% from Leader of the Pack.

    Druid heavy also. Utilising their tanking ability, their leader of the pack buff, and also the brez/innervates. Resto shamans for mana tide and totems.

     
    Posted : 10/09/2019 7:25 pm
    (@stfuppercut)
    Posts: 1228
    Noble Member
     

    Just my 2 cents.
    I don't want to see you get banned, dude.

    Classic is out, I had a good run on Barrens chat haha. Teebs has sent me a few personal messages over the course of my time here, so I've always been working on borrowed time. Any of his issues with me thus far stemmed from Duki and Gnoll, so I'm okay with leaving on those terms. My overall contribution has been positive and I feel like I've gotten most of my feelings about Classic off of my chest. Was a great time leading up to Classic!

     
    Posted : 10/09/2019 9:39 pm
    (@mookey)
    Posts: 22
    Eminent Member
     

    You all jumped into Stfuppercut, I can see it from his perspective, the web is getting bloated with low-quality guides, especially videos only wasting players time, and not helping them out. But since Teb said that we should guide Midoo where he was wrong I will try to fix some stuff

    - Warriors are the best tanking class by far and you should feel no shame turning down a well geared Druid for a mediocre warrior as long as they know strats because of their way better damage mitigation. 1 main tank for the boss that has to be a Warrior and 1 or 2 offtanks for adds that can be Warriors or Druids. However in a fight that has tank swapping have at least 2 tanks with Taunt ready.

  • Druids are mitigating damage better than warriors if you read any in-depth effective health theorycrafting analysis

  • Druids have taunt

  • Druids are inferior in fear encounters on Horde side (and if you don't have dwarf priests on alliance)

  • Druids cannot achieve crush-immunity (Stalag)

  • Druids are superior on aggro early on

  • Gear spike comes late (AQ), although pre-bis is really good

  • Needs to be dedicated - must farm Gnomer for Pummelers for snap aggro

  • TL:DR - there is no need to rule druids out, a good raid has no reason to turn down a good geared dedicated player that wants to play a druid.

    - Priests are the best healer when it comes to raw output, but it's best advised to have at least one Druid just for their unique buffs. If you're Horde, have 1 Shaman in every party of 4 melee DPS to make the most out of Windfury Totem. If you're Alliance have 4 Paladins, each of them with the important role of buffing an re-buffing classes with Greater Blessings. Fill the rest with Priests so you have about 10 healers total.

  • Paladins are great because every crit heal restore a portion of mana back, have amazing blessings, and the biggest range of dispels in game

  • Priests are great overall healers with a huge arsenal of single target and group heals. On alliance side they are helping more on healing the raid, while in horde setting they are more focused on tank healing

  • Druids have tremendous healing output, but their hots do not stack, so they cannot cross heal too much, causing overlaps if there are too many of them.

  • Shamans are great group healers, altho can play single target heal duty if needed. With 3x T2 their game goes up tenfold and their totems trivialize some of the poison-based encounters. WF totem scales with every gear upgrade for melee well until endgame, and there is never too much shamans in a raid setting


  • The best healer is the best player you have playing healer class. Class choice is not making some class best. People are not bringing one-two druids because of the fact that they have unique buffs, but because their hots do not stack.

    certain encounters like in BWL require 1 Hunter with Tranquilizing Shot but Hunters are generally meh in raiding.

  • You want at least 2 hunters for raiding. One should be a puller, 2nd should be peeler/kiter if needed. They work together on split pulls if needed too.

  • You should have more if your group is learning encounters that have frenzy component

  • You can buff all melee groups with AP if you have more and you want to spread them

  • They provide aura for NR if you play Huhuran with 15 soakers
  • 2 Protection Warriors (Main Tank and Swapping Tank)
    2 Protection Warriors or Feral Druids (Add swiping/cleaving)

    You need total of 3 players dedicated for tanking. Anything can work, even putting paladin in the mix. You also want to give as much tank gear to fury warriors to be able to offtank stuff when needed. They will be perfectly fine.

  • You will want to start with 3 protection warriors or 2 warriors and 1 druid

  • You will want to convert one protection warrior to protfury for threat based encounters as soon as he gets some nice threat gear

  • You might swap last protection warrior to protfury after he gets threat gear, or keep him as "mitigation" tank
  • If you're doing 4 Horsemen, you'll need 8 Protection Warrior tanks

    You need 8 players capable of tanking, fury works just fine, especially for Zeliek and Blameux

    Rest of the post

    You need to understand few things
    1) there is very little gear before BWL & ZG for casters with +hit, and melee pre-bis is great
    2) there is almost no room for more than 12 melee in endgame encounters (C'Thun & KT)
    3) raid you start raiding MC with is not gonna be the raid you raid true endgame, and that is beneficial to you

    You want:

  • At least 3 tanking dedicated players

  • As many warriors as you can (great pre-bis, scale endlessly endgame (no cap on rage), can help guild outside of raids tanking dungeons)

  • Nice balance of healers, and while some encounters can be done with less, you want at least 10 and no more than 12-14

  • [H] As many shamans as you can, (up to 8, for every group), they make endgame on horde side almost trivial

  • [A] At least 3 paladins

  • Two resto druids

  • If you have good feral druid, one of 3 tanking slots is for him, will make your tank gearing easier.

  • At least 4 mages for start (Majordomo), then add more over the course of the game

  • As many rogues as you can for start, then try to keep 4 best ones for endgame

  • As much hunters as you can for start, then try to keep 2-3 best ones for pulling / kiting / tranq duties

  • Minimum of 3 warlocks for 3 curses, then start adding more as their gear progresses. When you have 4+ it is ok to bring 1 Shadow priest into the mix to boost em more.


  • Also remember that good raid leader will make any setup works, I have seen some crazy setups so far but I have also seen some guilds do not progress because they are bloated with bad setups & toy specs. On top of that, no matter that player is playing subpar or toy spec, if he is dedicated enough he will make the best of it. I have seen good players play prot & retri paladins, or elemental shamans, warlocks destroying damage meters before ZG gear.

    I hope that helps a bit... Stay well

     
    Posted : 11/09/2019 12:13 pm
    (@rijndael)
    Posts: 371
    Reputable Member
     

    I don't want to see you get banned, dude.

    Indeed - I would be disappointed if Stfuppercut were banned.

    Yes, it's true, comparing the guide to literal turd and musing that the OP created the terrible material due to their shortcomings in-game was unnecessary and kind of a dick move.

    On the other hand, stating that someone's guide can be compared to literal turd and musing that they created terrible material due to their in-game shortcomings is so unnecessary that it's actually kinda funny.

     
    Posted : 11/09/2019 1:55 pm
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