What consumables do mages bring that warlocks wouldn't? I never played warlock but assumed consumables department is exactly the same for warlock as for mage. Does the council also factor in raid prep time: for example farming soul shards? Mages have little to no raid prep. It's a little like saying: all the loot goes to the rogues because they top DPS meters. Now lets consider what allows them to perform so well? Probably in no small part buffs from people who do less DPS.
I'm sorry, but even in a thousand years I won't be convinced. :roll: I'll say though, this is good solution for top of the line min-maxing guilds.
We're going to have "excited" Warlocks too, but you can't base all your decisions on maximizing people's excitement. Excitement doesn't do DPS better or tank better, and people do want to clear content faster and faster.
Merode has it right with "cold logic", damn. I think raiding hours is a great metric, because it doesn't over-benefit people who happen to be better at analysis, although I take your point about tank hours. I think I understand your perspective now, but it kinda horrifies me. These aren't numbers, these are people - hopefully your friends, by the time you're raiding. You're going to clear it all anyway, why obsess about doing so slightly faster?
To the RP servers I go!
Nymis, I'd also be curious to hear your response to Merode's point about classes. If we can objectively show that, say, rogues do the best DPS at a given tier, why not disallow all non-rogue DPS in the raid? (Or, for the sake of shared buffs and using dropped loot efficiently, allow one of each other DPS class, and fill the rest with rogues?)
What consumables do mages bring that warlocks wouldn't? I never played warlock but assumed consumables department is exactly the same for warlock as for mage. Does the council also factor in raid prep time: for example farming soul shards? Mages have little to no raid prep. It's a little like saying: all the loot goes to the rogues because they top DPS meters. Now lets consider what allows them to perform so well? Probably in no small part buffs from people who do less DPS.
I'm sorry, but even in a thousand years I won't be convinced. :roll: I'll say though, this is good solution for top of the line min-maxing guilds.
Min-maxing your raid potential is not the same as having a min-maxing guild. Helping a fat guy run better isn't the same as training him for the Olympic games I think :lol: And there's nothing stopping us from taking a break and eating a donut every now and then, but if our running session is more about eating donuts then it is about running then I'm doing a shit job motivating him to run and get better at running.
Also, like I said, it's not min-maxing the potential entirely because you still have to factor in the human element ("fuck this, I want gear too" for example), but factoring in that human element is near impossible with a DKP system.
As for the mages: their consumables are usually more expensive than those of the Warlocks for obvious reasons - a lot of raiding guilds would rather demand more from Mages than Warlocks (better DPS increase overall).
Warlocks bringing Soul Shards is just as important as Mages having max level food/drinks and sharing it with the whole raid. You'll find that the raid is going to be a lot more limited for not having level 45 food (instead of level 55 food) rather than soul shards. Honestly, I'd rather put in the effort of farming 20 minutes beforehand in peace and putting a SS up on a healer once in a while + passing a HS to a tank before a pull, than spamming conjuring food/water spells and trading with everyone who says "food/water pls" every, single, raid.
It comes with what's expected of your class.
I'm sorry, but this comparison is not accurate. This council idea looks to me a lot like corporation. People who clean are of little importance, but we need them to keep running (warlocks, druids, hunters). People who do actual work are a little more important so they'll get bigger pay checks (shamans, paladins, fury warriors). Management, boy oh boy (mages, rogues, prot warriors, priests). Of course you should give your life to corporation. Corporation is your family and well-being. Nothing puts a bigger grin on my face than steep upwards charts!
My idea is, we're not there for the guild as for the idea or organization. Rather people are what makes the guild, and guild (the organization) should serve them. With your concept some classes get shorthanded. Not to mention underlying issue - people are not objective so they'll distribute loot subjectively. Or do you suggest you keep track of every single one of 40 people and notice what consumables they bring, how much they try? How do you keep track of it? I bet this whole council works on "feeling" who deserves what and not objectively determining it, because that would be much harder to track than DKP.
These aren't numbers, these are people - hopefully your friends, by the time you're raiding. You're going to clear it all anyway, why obsess about doing so slightly faster?
It's not about getting it down faster, it's about principle. If my main perspective is about "let's make friends and not hurt anyone's feelings" then that doesn't inspire a lot confidence in my ability to raid lead. After all, WoW is a glorified DnD math game where you should, in theory, get your rewards based on effort,ability and luck - not World of Feelingscraft where you get your rewards based on how good they're going to make you feel.
If we all start getting riled up about feelings, we're never getting anywhere. Bosses don't care about how good you feel about your staff, the 39 other people who are there with you aren't going to be as no-fucks-given as you after 3 more wipes on the same raid where you got your epic staff.
And the "you're going to clear things anyway" - yeah, at launch maybe, but when you'll have 4-5 raids to farm every week you're not going to clear things anyway. That's what the casual /r/edditards don't tell you - that no one's going to want to clear MC in 3 hours when there's Onyxia, BWL, ZG and also AQ to farm. People will want to clear things of course, but if you are not going to be able to clear all of them every week then they're going to leave for other guilds who can, the good ones who can do better. That's why the casual guilds don't get to AQ/Naxx generally, among other things.
Again, you're only considering the feelings of the laziest folks who know nothing about the extra effort the others who are carrying have to put in, and I'm mostly considering the feelings of the ones who are putting in the real work that is needed to clear the bosses, people who shouldn't be held at the exact standard as the one who aren't asked to respec every week or buy consumables - but these two categories don't have to be mutually exclusive, and instead of designing a DKP system for every little tidbit of effort put in, you could just use a balanced and educated council.
If you can't understand the rational decision to guide my raid to victory isn't always aligned with your ideals all the time, you are the one with an attitude problem. We can still be friends if you understand that it's far more important that we keep a solid raid team together by distributing loot on the basis of us getting better and better at clearing raids together rather than pleasing every person in the raid. You can't please everyone, that's a given - but the fact that the raid is getting better, that the person who got the item earned it and that your time will come eventually anyway is an easier pill to swallow than "it was fair to give it to him because he showed up as often as you did", regardless of anything else.
I'm sorry, but this comparison is not accurate. This council idea looks to me a lot like corporation. People who clean are of little importance, but we need them to keep running (warlocks, druids, hunters). People who do actual work are a little more important so they'll get bigger pay checks (shamans, paladins, fury warriors). Management, boy oh boy (mages, rogues, prot warriors, priests). Of course you should give your life to corporation. Corporation is your family and well-being. Nothing puts a bigger grin on my face than steep upwards charts!
My idea is, we're not there for the guild as for the idea or organization. Rather people are what makes the guild, and guild (the organization) should serve them. With your concept some classes get shorthanded. Not to mention underlying issue - people are not objective so they'll distribute loot subjectively. Or do you suggest you keep track of every single one of 40 people and notice what consumables they bring, how much they try? How do you keep track of it? I bet this whole council works on "feeling" who deserves what and not objectively determining it, because that would be much harder to track than DKP.
Your comparisson is flawed because money, in this context (gear), isn't just there for personal spending - "money" we give to the people in our raids helps our guild get better and better. The cleaning lady does roughly the same job as the CEO, except worse (for now). The people who are getting more money actually do tend to make more money for out guild as a whole and that is why they get money in the first place. It's not at all like that.
But yeah, good luck getting people with degrees to give a shit about your company when you're paying the cleaning lady the same salary as that of an engineer. :lol:
You keep track of it by using Class Leads and demanding minimum requirements to join those raids.
To qualify for loot, let's say you need to have attendance of over 80%. That's easy to track at the end of each raid and the Raid Lead usually handles it.
Meters show you how well they do in raids. Threat meters show whether or not you can actually handle an upgrade. Class Leads should know every BiS item on every boss, so by looking at the meters and looking at the Class Leads, it should be easy to figure out which class should get it and, more or less, which person should receive that item. We'll then ask everyone from that class to link which item they'd be replacing so we can get a better view at how well that improvement would work. We come to a decision and explain it to them, then give the item if no one has any better argument. Consumables are easy to check for (you can just hover over that person) and then see those buffs - but usually good meters go hand in hand with consumables.
..and then after 20 minutes of discussion you move to next boss? :wink:
Ok, I'll grant you that it might work and it seems to be be popular. My realm must have been exception that I took for norm.
TL;DR
You take a methodical approach.
First check attendance of the raid. (if over 80% then good)
Then check for class. (most of the times it will go for the best class available, but like I said, sometimes it won't because it's not fair to always do this)
Then check for meters and consumables. (if people are too high on the threat meter for no reason they're out, look at DPS meters, check for consumables)
Then look at the items they'll be replacing. (no sense replacing a good epic with a slightly better epic instead of replacing a mediocre blue with a really good epic)
Have a short deliberation and commit.
Yeah it does/will suck ass for the first raids, but once a bunch of people have gear and everyone knows what they're basically after it should work out quicker, it always ends up with having a part of the raid that's a bit more geared up than the other part of the raid - so they usually pass on most things and stack karma (in this case, attendance) for the next raid tier, whereas the other part is happy to get whatever at a much faster pace than the one we had when we first entered the raid. Class Leads will be very important in speeding up this process.
Ok, I don't have much more to add to discussion. I'll just leave it here and quote a couple sentences. Of course it's from retail, but I can easily imagine same situation in Vanilla: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20753178448
All I can say is Loot Council does not take into account those who work harder on their gear than others, infact it rewards putting in as little effort as possible, as people with lower level gear will nearly always get the upgrades.
Loot council is a massive red flag for me when joining any guild. Just don't use it.
Even on the slim chance the officers don't abuse it they are still human and will make mistakes.
I've been screwed over by loot council twice. Two different guilds. Two different games. (That's how dumb I am).
Never, EVER again.
There is one method, and one method only that determines your contribution and that's DKP. So either DKP or, as a compromise - /roll. (Because loot is tossed at you like beads at Mardi Gras)
Loot council is as good as the council running it.
"I've run out of arguments, here's a thread where people are debating the exact same things you've just argued against for the past hours" :lol:
Well, if you're going to bring retail into discussion, please try and find any guild that's using DKP and how many are using Loot Council. Can't find a single decent guild on Kazzak, Tarren Mill or Draenor (servers generally worth a fuck in terms of PvE progression) that still uses DKP.
Taking it bit by bit:
Jackass#1: DKP is more likely to allow people with lower level gear to get upgrades because they can just farm DKP points while getting carried by others. This of course depends on how your LC / DKP system is designed - to cater towards the lowest common denominators, or the people who are actually deserving of that loot.
Jackass#2: I just explained why DKP is also human and prone to bias in design.
Jackass#3: Sorry, the guy wasn't even raiding on that character at the time when he made that comment and the only thing he couldn't even finish the heroic raid which launches 1 month after he made that comment. Credentials aside, if I had 1g every time some random jackass complained "LC was not fair" just because he didn't get loot, I'd have a year of sub right now. Anyone who takes /roll as a valid loot distribution system is also a confirmed jackass.
And you know how I can tell that people who complain about corrupt LC are in the minority? Because it's still the most popular loot distribution system used by most guilds out there. There are far more people satisfied with this system than there are people upset about it.
I actually agree with Jackass#4, if you have idiots running LC you will get idiotic results.
I'm not sure, but it might fall under meme thread.
Yeah, in reality if you do something like that people will fuck off in an instant. Seriously, I dare you to conduct an LC where all your loot goes to 5 people and see if people can/will sign up for the next raids, see if you can run more than 3 raids before people quit.