DKP with class/spec or MT priority on important drops, plus LC for things like Thunderfury. This is optimal for the majority of guilds.
Pure LC is best for the super competitive ones though.
Spot on.
I guess it's a hard concept to grasp. I get that, I'm not even sure it would be feasible at all either. It would require a guild full of trusting, empathetic, selfless and understanding team players who were in it for the love of the community feeling rather than the progression. I can see how that might prove difficult to achieve.
Don't give up on this idea, or perspective in general. There are still lots of people out there who care more about human beings than pixels or performance :)
In actual vanilla and TBC we ran pure dkp bidding and all; In Cata we ran EP/GP; on nostalrius we ran Loot council but had a point (dkp) system that tracked attendance, loot received, contribution, and activity to the guild that informed loot council decisions; During Legion mythic raiding we ran Pure Loot council consisting of officers; On Lightbringer we again ran pure loot council this time consisting of officers (including class leaders) and myself guiding discussion and representing a tie vote.
For classic we are running a more advanced proprietary system that is similar to dkp-guided loot council but much more automated and more transparent while also being collaborative with the entire guild.
I had less drama with loot council and dkp-guided loot council than any other system. Progression was also significantly easier and faster with these systems.
EP/GP is vastly superior to pure dkp but slows down progression by not targeting optimal distribution like loot council and also by creating a bizzare incentive to not take minor upgrades until you receive the major upgrade you want most.
dkp has similar issues in that people can not only waste points on items they can also target items to receive items out of optimal distribution.
The strength of dkp and ep/gp is they only minimally rely on the trust of leadership and are more transparent than a pure loot council system. For casual guilds, reoccuring pugs, and guilds that do not have strong leadership EP/GP and DKP are definitely the way to go unless you use GDKP.
For guilds with strong experienced leadership and those focused on optimal progression there really is no substitute for some type of loot council.
The downfall of loot council is that it's only as good and as trustworthy as it's council It also can suffer from a lot of implicit subconscious bias if the council isn't well organized and using objective measures to guide decisions.
For the progression minded raider I would always encourage them to find a LC or LC hybrid guild because if you can't trust the leadership with loot decisions than there are likely to be many other failings for the guild and you, assuming the ability to roll on whatever server you want (like there is now), can almost certainly find guilds that are better led.
I will always vote loot council, mostly because dkp is a pain in the ass to track and manage etc but also because I’ve been on the receiving end of dkp bias as MT where I basically bought stuff and the guild leaders/officers didn’t take any dkp from me for them because they liked having me around which sounds good in theory but you feel guilty for it so you don’t bid on OS items or end up sinking it into gearing up a friend or whatever.
For loot council you need trust and comradeship within the guild, but if the officers are cool then it's great.
DKP really feels counter-productive, makes it possible to screw the other one over. I remember this guy, needed this weapon that nobody else did. Someone else just announced in the voice chat that he'll throw in some dkp even he doesn't need it, juust so the guy can't take the weapon for the least dkp possible, since "it's worth alot more for that to happen". So yeah.
Also, suicide kings is another good option for this (well anything is better than dkp really).
It depends on what DKP system you choose. With fixed price DKP it is not an issue.
What if more than one guy needs the same loot?
If you think drama is a possible issue, DKP is simpler. Aside from scamming the system or unfair point rewards, there is no drama with DKP.
If you have mature adults in your guild, Loot Council is objectively the better system. Loot goes where it's needed most, and your best/most dedicated players get rewarded appropriately. Spreading loot evenly is more "fair", but it doesn't kill bosses as easily.
In a perfect world with leadership that considers all facets of the raid comp and the people behind the characters, LC is the optimal choice. It allows competent raid leadership with the most effective means to equip their raid with maximum benefit.
However, no guild is perfect and not all interpersonal relationships are handled in a non biased manner so a DKP supplemented system would give an objective metric to aid the loot council in their award considerations.
You can make arguments where a pure system of either or will not result in the optimal decision being made. However a hybrid system would strike a balanced approach. The loot council favors the popular as well as the most beneficial while the DKP advocates for the less popular but reliable players.
What if more than one guy needs the same loot?
The moment something drops, it's checked in loot tables what classes are eligible for it. Then it is checked who out of all these classes has the most DKP. Then this person is asked if he/she wants it. In case of pass, the next person is asked. If at any stage there is more than one person with the same amount of DKP and will to get item, these people roll. Then DKP points are deducted from owner's balance. In case of tanking gear, MT and first OT has priority not even looking into DKP.
So I guess our system wasn't pure, brute DKP. We had some rules that made it impossible for hunter to roll on warrior weapons (or they could get them, if no warrior wanted them). We had rules that regulated tanking gear and healing gear. But then again, those rules were plain simple and you could easily guess who'll get what even before raid started.
We'd probably even have DKP grants for farming mats, but usually there were much more people willing to raid than spots. Farming mats could make RL invite you and that was reward in itself. I remember farming hundreds of Grom's Blood just to get raiding spot in my last guild (Relentless).
Also, suicide kings is another good option for this (well anything is better than dkp really).
What's suicide kings? Do you sacrifice a goat?
I've also seen gear being sharded on a Guild using a DKP system, the first time I saw it made me so angry, that I left that Guild a month after I started raiding (it was WotLK).
For me Loot Council is the way to go, but it needs to be well documented, meaning;
- There needs to be some sort of 'constitution' available for all the members to read, explaining the decision making process.
- When the council leaves the voice channel to discuss the loot, it has to be recorded (if it's a chat it needs to be saved as well), archive it and make it available to everyone after some time, we have plenty of tool for this nowadays (like YouTube).
- The council cannot be the the same people, there needs to be a system to rotate who is the council, or some sort of democratic process to choose who is the council every X time.
DKP is an over-engineered system which suggest that loot distribution is something economic-based, where a single member of the system can have 'savings' and 'earning'. This is completely wrong, WoW is a game where in order to progress over the content, gear needs to be distributed wisely, not with some kind of capitalist wannabe system.
Personally I think that, as some have said, LC is probably the best in an ideal world as it is flexible and efficient if set up properly.
As such, I imagine it'd be better in the long run once a guild is properly settled I guess. I do personally prefer managing zero-sum open bid dkp because it's the kind of system that largely sorts itself out within the context vanilla is, namely that classes aren't balanced and loot isn't balanced. Ultimately LC encourages. say, hybrids and sub-optimal specs to sacrifice themselves for the greater good of the guild. If you can put togethet a solid core willing to do what is necessary, then you're good to go. Reality wasn't always quite that easy in vanilla and probably won't be in classic either. What makes your guild stand out from the others? Etc. It's easy enough for say tanks and mages to get geared up fast with LC, but nothing stops them from then jumping ship and joining another slightly more progressed guild with their new shiny loot. I remembet my old guild on a somewhat quiet rppvp server lost no less than two thunderfuries in a row because it became the MTs entry ticket into a higher tier guild. Ultimately you can never guard against this short of having either a super tightly knit community or being the best of the best (or both). I think aiming to become the best and most hardcore guild is a fair thing to aim for, but it is very difficult to achieve.
I feel that dkp lets a guild potentially gear up more evenly and keeps a slightly more visible and more easily attainable carrot dangling in front of people, which may buy you time to then indeed build a community that will follow you to the end even if people need to wait a raid tier until it's their 'turn' to be prioritized.
Of course, if you have 50 serious raiders lined up ready to go who will do whatever it takes and who accept whatever LC you set up, then you've got smooth sailing ahead of you.
But I don't think that's reality for a lot of guilds immediately upon the brand new release of the classic servers.
I know that personally I'll be happy if I can manage a community of 40 people somewhat willing to raid at all. No point in starting from the onset of 'this is the ideal loot situation for when we hit C'thun' if you don't even know whether you can manage a guild run UBRS. Some people need to start a little smaller.
Also, suicide kings is another good option for this (well anything is better than dkp really).
What's suicide kings? Do you sacrifice a goat?
Here's a good video explaining it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNxD6zHzf6M
Just wanted to say thank you very much for all your feedback, I read through everything. As a result after speaking with the other admin staff in my guild we have all agreed upon a slightly modified version of DKP. Thanks again, Soup.
In my experience- and keep in mind, this is just my experience, the guilds I've been in and the people I've raided with over the course of ~12 years (haven't raided recently)- the people who always yell the loudest about DKP and other not-loot-council loot systems.... are the people who know that they would never be given gear by a loot council.
The claim is always the same, every time- that the loot council is biased. But realistically, it's usually more that they personally are the problem. The people yelling about biased loot councils, inevitably are the ones showing up late to raids, trying to sneak missing enchants, 'forgetting' to flask/food/consumable, the afkers, the people who 'forget' to change out of pvp spec, fail to repair before raids, ask for summons.... the list goes on.
The funniest part? A competent DKP system would greatly hinder their attempts to get items as well due to all of the above. But in loot council, where attendance is effectively mandatory to be eligible for gear, DKP attendance is rewarded with the possibility of eventually taking whatever piece you want.
Personally, in my opinion, loot council is the 'best' option- it shows your entre team of raiders can work together and trust leadership to their job, that your raiders consider the whole before the self. DKP is for situations where the guild is new, or the guild/leadership is uncertain of their ability to trust the leadership to dispense loot fairly.
DKP is a workable loot system, but in my opinion, a properly run loot council is what all guilds should strive for.
I usually attend every raid but still think Loot Council is best option. If you trust your guild and know they intend to make guild as strong as possible they should decide which item is best for what member at any given time.