So the Battlezone in Winterspring is opening in 5 minutes. What is actually going to happen? This is what I am trying to find out.
The battle begins and tons of collectable lumber spawn around the map. A player must collect 10 lumber to receive the honor bonus. Once one faction turns-in 1000 lumber the battle will end. Players will likely split up and roam the entire map collecting lumber. Collecting lumber as a solo might be the most efficient way, since you won't need to share lumber with anyone else. The bigger your group size, the more lumber you will be forced to share.
A player entering the zone will have little to risk, so they may just attack other gatherers in hope of looting their collected lumber. The closer players get to 10 lumber, the more costly a death will be. Players may play more cautiously as they approach 10 lumber. If you encounter an unsuspecting player gathering lumber, then ganking them might be worth the risk. Players would have the chance at greatly increasing their lumber supply by ganking an unsuspecting gatherer. The less populated your faction is in a battlezone, the more honor you receive from turnins.
This is how I see the Winterspring Battlezone transpiring. What do you all think?
@Erik I found the Tarren Mill vs Southshore BG/Scenario they added in legion? to be pretty great.
40v40 deathmatch and first to 150.
It’s got like a fast style WPvP feel to it.
I loved it.
Well it's just a remake of how the WPvP is in Classic, so it won't be needed in actual Classic.
It was decent because it was TM vs Sshore like in vanilla, but with "retail" classes, which made it worse.
It was also only during a certain time and event.
Hmm, I guess.
It was fun while it lasted I guess :P
Not played retail in a while so I had no idea it was only a limited time. Sad.
So the Battlezone in Winterspring is opening in 5 minutes. What is actually going to happen? This is what I am trying to find out.
The battle begins and tons of collectable lumber spawn around the map. A player must collect 10 lumber to receive the honor bonus. Once one faction turns-in 1000 lumber the battle will end. Players will likely split up and roam the entire map collecting lumber. Collecting lumber as a solo might be the most efficient way, since you won't need to share lumber with anyone else. The bigger your group size, the more lumber you will be forced to share.
A player entering the zone will have little to risk, so they may just attack other gatherers in hope of looting their collected lumber. The closer players get to 10 lumber, the more costly a death will be. Players may play more cautiously as they approach 10 lumber. If you encounter an unsuspecting player gathering lumber, then ganking them might be worth the risk. Players would have the chance at greatly increasing their lumber supply by ganking an unsuspecting gatherer. The less populated your faction is in a battlezone, the more honor you receive from turnins.
This is how I see the Winterspring Battlezone transpiring. What do you all think?
May I ask why you are still trying to improve Classic with ideas that’s already been tested and tried in various ways and every time it’s been a fiasco?
How Vanilla was is what made it great.
World PvP happens organically and battle grounds are fun AF IMO, they both have their own place and no, they don’t need to be “equally” rewarding at a Honor level either. WPvP occur for different reasons than BGs too.
I don’t know what to say.
Because if you killed that other player, they might drop 20 Gold, 15 Lumber, and 15 Food. Killing that player might reap far faster rewards than roaming the zone and gathering more resources. If you think you can win a fight, why would you not attack them, especially if you already capped 25 resources.
The numbers are irrelevant for your argument. Let's say you do tons of analytics and calculate node placement, respawn rates, and travel times to produce a system in which honor gained via resource farming is roughly on par with battlegrounds, to attract players and bring them out into the world. In this system with competitive honor rewards for your event, any PvP you do during the event is icing which will further increase your honor gain, making this world PvP event a lucrative one.
In this ideal world PvP scenario, it is still sub-optimal and unfun because the primary focus is not PvP, it's resource gathering. The PvP is a side-mission to the honor-gaining mechanic.
You are trying to PvE-ify PvP. Stop. Playing with the numbers to make PvP "Integral" to your PvE resource event just moves the needle, but doesn't change the underlying format of the event - collect stuff, receive rewards. This doesn't work, has been proven not to work in multiple MMOs, including WoW, and isn't a new concept.
How about you just institute a larger honor gain for Honorable kills, with a greater penalty for killing the same player repeatedly, and increasing values for killing a variety of players? This encourages large bands of players seeking each other out and discourages corpse-camping. Additionally, have the faction leaders power be buffed but add very large honor gains for killing them, encourages city raids which are always good content.
World PvP happens organically...
This, organically! Adding objectives in the world, would not improve world pvp or make it any better, it would probably make it worst because you will feel like you need to do it as opposed to just having fun, wreaking havoc on the opposite faction, and having it organically happen. Back then faction hatred felt real to me! it sometimes ended in an out right war! and nothing was accomplished besides having tons of fun!!
When I or with friends wanted to world pvp it wasn't to gain Honor points or progress my character by turning in things to get gear...It was to make someones day a living hell lol
I mean world pvp starts with someone one ganking someone whether the same level or not and the other side retaliates.
In Vanilla helping your brothers out was something you did, you participated in some world pvp and it was glorious!
The numbers are irrelevant for your argument. Let's say you do tons of analytics and calculate node placement, respawn rates, and travel times to produce a system in which honor gained via resource farming is roughly on par with battlegrounds, to attract players and bring them out into the world. In this system with competitive honor rewards for your event, any PvP you do during the event is icing which will further increase your honor gain, making this world PvP event a lucrative one.
In this ideal world PvP scenario, it is still sub-optimal and unfun because the primary focus is not PvP, it's resource gathering. The PvP is a side-mission to the honor-gaining mechanic.
You are trying to PvE-ify PvP. Stop. Playing with the numbers to make PvP "Integral" to your PvE resource event just moves the needle, but doesn't change the underlying format of the event - collect stuff, receive rewards. This doesn't work, has been proven not to work in multiple MMOs, including WoW, and isn't a new concept.
You have to create objectives to split up players, otherwise the bigger group will just dominate. The Resource Battlezone system provides these objectives. Players care about honor. If they are repeatedly getting stomped by premades in WSG, then they can collect resources at their own peril in a Battlezone. It is an alternative way to farm honor. It can be a limited event, which is only active a few times a day. You kill playerd and loot their resources. That is an element of Battlezones.
How about you just institute a larger honor gain for Honorable kills, with a greater penalty for killing the same player repeatedly, and increasing values for killing a variety of players? This encourages large bands of players seeking each other out and discourages corpse-camping. Additionally, have the faction leaders power be buffed but add very large honor gains for killing them, encourages city raids which are always good content.
I agree Honor in World PvP should be increased, but you need a carrot to bring players to the zones. The point is to create more small scale PvP involving level 60 players, as well as introduce a loot pvp mechanic. I am aware that Blizzard's World PvP objectives failed, but that doesn't mean Battlezones will. Offer specifics and shortcomings of Battlezones.
World PvP happens organically...
This, organically! Adding objectives in the world, would not improve world pvp or make it any better, it would probably make it worst because you will feel like you need to do it as opposed to just having fun, wreaking havoc on the opposite faction, and having it organically happen. Back then faction hatred felt real to me! it sometimes ended in an out right war! and nothing was accomplished besides having tons of fun!!
When I or with friends wanted to world pvp it wasn't to gain Honor points or progress my character by turning in things to get gear...It was to make someones day a living hell lol
I mean world pvp starts with someone one ganking someone whether the same level or not and the other side retaliates.
In Vanilla helping your brothers out was something you did, you participated in some world pvp and it was glorious!
That is just not reality once battlegrounds are released. Don't be surprised if player mentality is different now. Sitting in Orgrimmar spamming crossrealm battlegrounds will be what players do. Battlezones give players an alternative for ranking up, while adding a twist to World PvP.
World PvP happens organically...
This, organically! Adding objectives in the world, would not improve world pvp or make it any better, it would probably make it worst because you will feel like you need to do it as opposed to just having fun, wreaking havoc on the opposite faction, and having it organically happen. Back then faction hatred felt real to me! it sometimes ended in an out right war! and nothing was accomplished besides having tons of fun!!
When I or with friends wanted to world pvp it wasn't to gain Honor points or progress my character by turning in things to get gear...It was to make someones day a living hell lol
I mean world pvp starts with someone one ganking someone whether the same level or not and the other side retaliates.
In Vanilla helping your brothers out was something you did, you participated in some world pvp and it was glorious!
That is just not reality once battlegrounds are released. Don't be surprised if player mentality is different now. Sitting in Orgrimmar spamming crossrealm battlegrounds will be what players do. Battlezones give players an alternative for ranking up, while adding a twist to World PvP.
Battlegrounds killed world PvP?
That is just not reality once battlegrounds are released.
I disagree, it may be different this time around but i believe people will still recreate the glory of world pvp even after battlegrounds are released
This was not the case on our server in vanilla.
My friend did the grind to Rank 14 and he would still world pvped all the time (before, during and after he got rank 14).
To rank up and get honor, yes, people went to battlegrounds but like i said world pvp wasn't about that.
It was about having fun and messing with the other faction!
Causing trouble!
Ganking their alts!
Starting a war!
Sitting in Orgrimmar spamming crossrealm battlegrounds will be what players do.
I think you underestimate why people are coming back to vanilla and what they want to recreate.
You have a Retail mentality, and yes that will bleed into classic but it wont infect the majority and take over...
Sitting in Orgrimmar spamming crossrealm battlegrounds will be what players do.
I think you underestimate why people are coming back to vanilla and what they want to recreate.
You have a Retail mentality, and yes that will bleed into classic but it wont infect the majority and take over...
In patch 1.12 that was literally what happened.
You have to create objectives to split up players, otherwise the bigger group will just dominate. The Resource Battlezone system provides these objectives. Players care about honor. If they are repeatedly getting stomped by premades in WSG, then they can collect resources at their own peril in a Battlezone. It is an alternative way to farm honor. It can be a limited event, which is only active a few times a day. You kill playerd and loot their resources. That is an element of Battlezones.
Let's pretend you devise mechanics in which all of the above works as you hope: players do the content in small groups, as a limited time event - or not, whatever you prefer - In the end, the players are really just focused on the resource gathering. Given the opportunity, they would exclusively gather the resources and not PvP, as the resources generate more honor/hour than HK farming. If the resource gathering doesn't generate enough honor/hour on its own to compete with battlegrounds, it'll be a ghost town. If the mechanic is only competitive while there are other players to kill, it'll be a ghost town, as it never reaches critical mass again after the initial release of the event.
The battlezone mechanic is an unfun impediment to the actual goal, PvP.
If you make it so that the resources are only harvest-able from other players, and not the world, that would potentially solve the gamesmanship, but we already do that. The turn in for that 'quest' is the pvp quartermaster and the resource is honor.
I agree Honor in World PvP should be increased, but you need a carrot to bring players to the zones. The point is to create more small scale PvP involving level 60 players, as well as introduce a loot pvp mechanic. I am aware that Blizzard's World PvP objectives failed, but that doesn't mean Battlezones will. Offer specifics and shortcomings of Battlezones.
I did. The concept of the 'carrot' you're offering in your battlezone model is not fun - it's about as fun as daily quests. It becomes an 'obligation' to play the game your way to optimize your time. Adding incentives or structure to WPvP breaks down the model, it doesn't shore it up. People will play to the objective and min/max the pvp component to optimize time, not fun. We have that scenario in Retail already.
No combination of world pvp objectives besides "bad guys over there, kill them for sport" increases the fun. Battlegrounds give structured objectives, which allows for people to put an endpoint on their playtime. World PvP events are best enjoyed as 'unending' situations that occur organically without structure.
You have to create objectives to split up p0layers, otherwise the bigger group will just dominate. The Resource Battlezone system provides these objectives. Players care about honor. If they are repeatedly getting stomped by premades in WSG, then they can collect resources at their own peril in a Battlezone. It is an alternative way to farm honor. It can be a limited event, which is only active a few times a day. You kill playerd and loot their resources. That is an element of Battlezones.
Let's pretend you devise mechanics in which all of the above works as you hope: players do the content in small groups, as a limited time event - or not, whatever you prefer - In the end, the players are really just focused on the resource gathering. Given the opportunity, they would exclusively gather the resources and not PvP, as the resources generate more honor/hour than HK farming. If the resource gathering doesn't generate enough honor/hour on its own to compete with battlegrounds, it'll be a ghost town. If the mechanic is only competitive while there are other players to kill, it'll be a ghost town, as it never reaches critical mass again after the initial release of the event.
The battlezone mechanic is an unfun impediment to the actual goal, PvP.
If you make it so that the resources are only harvest-able from other players, and not the world, that would potentially solve the gamesmanship, but we already do that. The turn in for that 'quest' is the pvp quartermaster and the resource is honor.
I agree Honor in World PvP should be increased, but you need a carrot to bring players to the zones. The point is to create more small scale PvP involving level 60 players, as well as introduce a loot pvp mechanic. I am aware that Blizzard's World PvP objectives failed, but that doesn't mean Battlezones will. Offer specifics and shortcomings of Battlezones.
I did. The concept of the 'carrot' you're offering in your battlezone model is not fun - it's about as fun as daily quests. It becomes an 'obligation' to play the game your way to optimize your time. Adding incentives or structure to WPvP breaks down the model, it doesn't shore it up. People will play to the objective and min/max the pvp component to optimize time, not fun. We have that scenario in Retail already.
No combination of world pvp objectives besides "bad guys over there, kill them for sport" increases the fun. Battlegrounds give structured objectives, which allows for people to put an endpoint on their playtime. World PvP events are best enjoyed as 'unending' situations that occur organically without structure.
I outlined reasons why players would choose to PvP in Battlezones. If you had little to no resources, you could loot another player and take theirs. Everytime you cap 10 resources and receive the honor bonus, you would reset at 0 and be inclined to gank somebody who might be closer to 10 resources. Ganking and looting other players would be a viable playstyle in a Battlezone. You act as though Horde and Alliance will just ignore eachother, when killing another player could more than double your resources.
The battlezone honor rewards could be better than battlegrounds, but would only be available a few times a day. You also have to recognize that most players do not have access to premade honor farming groups. This way to farm honor isn't even available to most players, which is why they might be encouraged to play a battlezone.
The reason why World PvP happens is that players have non-PvP reasons to be in zones. They are leveling, farming materials, doing quests etc.. The resource mechanic in battlezones offers players another reason to leave capital cities. Roam and collect resources for honor, at the risk of being ganked and losing it all. What are some forseeable flaws with the Winterspring Battlezone listed above?
In patch 1.12 that was literally what happened.
Not sure how much vanilla you actually played or even played on a PVE server...?
You are acting like battlegrounds and crossrealm killed world pvp to a point all zones were a ghost town and none were happening...
World PVP on our server started dying halfway through TBC, not in vanilla
Like I said this was not my experience on my server in vanilla (PVP server), even when crossrealm came out, world pvp was still happening.
I know this because our guild would participate in it all the time even when we were doing naxx. And we were doing naxx right before tbc came out so we were still doing it. We would do this before every raid and just camp Blackrock Mountain, sometimes we would get alot of action sometimes not so much.
Like I said your bringing retail mentality over into classic, i definitely did BGs and spam the queues, but I also went out in the world when farming and with friends to stir things up with the other faction by ganking the horde.
EDIT: Crossrealm pvp may have hurt pvp in general because when you queued up for a battleground you would know the opposing players but crossrealm made it so, you may never see these people again or recognize them at all. You couldn't see them outside of the battleground which was a big turn off to some people, it was to me. I would rather have longer queues but thats me. But it sure didnt kill world pvp, the statement i would always hear is....flying killed world pvp.
WPvP just felt more about faction pride and sticking it to the enemy than doing it for Honor. That’s why it occurred naturally and spread organically throughout the game.
Not everything have to be about gaining honor when it comes to PvP and that is exactly how it was, right?
So why change it? It’s a fundamental part of what it is.