At the risk of being pedantic or argumentative I'm going to try to respond to what you said to highlight why a label of social would be inaccurate for my guild and other highly successful hardcore guilds. Because you have troubled to reply with relatively complete posts, I’ll do my best to address your views completely as well.
I'll also concede that I should have prefaced my advice or titled it such to underline that it's written assuming that the audience is competent players who are "able to compete" and have a schedule that allows for hardcore raiding.
That said, you have written fairly accurate portrayal of the hardcore scene that you are familiar with, but not the only hardcore scene out there—there are two easy examples of well-known hardcore guilds that are relatively nontoxic and have significant social aspects to them. Both Dreamstate & Scuba Cops (at one point, Scuba Cops Orgrimmar) are two guilds that have significant server first accomplishments on pservers and a hardcore mindset. They also both have significant social aspects to their guilds and under the arguments presented above wouldn't qualify as hardcore. Dank Budz Collective is another guild that has had a large degree of success on private servers while remaining pretty social.
Just because you may be antisocial or prefer to raid without getting to know, meeting in real life, and/or wanting to stay together on a server from launch to finish and then move to other servers, doesn't mean that there's not players out there that do. Nor does a guild valuing these things miraculously change it into a social guild.
That aside, maybe I should just label our guild as social or nontoxic hardcore to scare away the autists and neckbeards incapable of maintaining a hardcore mindset and effort level while also fostering an environment that's enjoyable to be in. Or maybe I wrote this advice with exactly that in mind.
Again, though, I don't feel that there is anything wrong with hardcore asocial guilds (outside the inherent social dysfunction and toxicity that tends to be a part of them) you describe, I just know that it is not necessary, and to me, the accomplishments had in that environment ring hollow and unsatisfying.
I also am less impressed by a "hardcore" guild that forms from the remains of guilds that fall apart at the beginning of naxx or aq40 than I am by a guild that stays together from server launch through the end of kt farming or even cross server/expansion accomplishments. Again, to each their own, but in my opinion a raid team isn't worthy of the title guild if it can't survive progression through more than half a raid tier and/or its gear is all from cannibalized guilds that died.
I actually think we share a significant amount of common ground on the topic. The distinction here would be the emphasis that is placed on social etiquette and social behavior in your guild.
I emphasize these because hardcore minded people often forget their value or rationalize their complete lack of competency in these areas by pretending that being (or tolerating) toxic asshole is just part of the territory of being hardcore. I also emphasize them because as much as some may pretend they don't matter they can and have killed many hardcore guilds.
I do not believe nor have I argued that they are the foundation to success in hardcore guilds, but I will argue that a guild's leadership (and raiders) ignores them at their peril.
There are some assumptions underlying your belief that the "social aspects" don't matter in hardcore guilds that need to be discussed because assuming that these values don't matter assumes quite a few things that were generally false in vanilla and likely to be false in classic.
(1) Your raid team has something to offer its members that justifies putting up with an environment that is toxic.
Assuming your guild reaches the critical mass where it's killing bosses efficiently and reliably, sure this is likely to happen for a few guilds (even a broken clock is right twice a day), but that's a pretty big assumption for guilds that are not already established, or at least having a pretty significant core to build upon. Also, as discussed throughout this post, it’s likely to be an assumption that fails to last for long as people quickly quit/burn out/etc. after a raid tier or 2, which you reply to above as “perform or you will be replaced” which leads to assumption 2.
(2) There is an unlimited/very healthy pool of raiders willing to join your guild and replace all the people that quit because of personality conflicts etc.
Although this is something that's been present in retail due to server transfers as well as private servers due to extremely large non-vanilla like server populations, This is an assumption that was false in actual vanilla and may be false in classic depending on server size, # of servers, and etc. The “hardcore” guilds described above on my server did not progress farther than my guild nor did any of them continue to exist much into TBC.
(3) The guilds you describe are actually as bereft of social function as you pretend they are. The longer wow has existed the less social you have needed to be, but no matter how you slice it, it’s hard to spend 20 hours plus a week on collaborative activities absent some social function.
They are also assumptions that prove to kill "guilds" as the number of "hardcore" pserver guilds I've watched melt down at either the aq40 level or during early progression in Naxx that then reemerge under different leadership or with different cores (that are conspicuously missing toxic elements or have those toxic players sitting on benches) are enough to show that being toxic isn't a necessary ingredient or byproduct of hardcore raiding.
Stated differently, in my experience what is being presented as the only type of hardcore guild is actually the type of guild that I've seen fall apart repeatedly and rarely make it from a server launch through the end of naxx. To the extent that these "hardcore" players coalesce into a guild made up of the refugees of multiple failed guilds no one can take credit for building those guilds. To me that's not a guild, it's just a short-lived raid team—if your hardcore guilds are dying every raid tier and reforming they aren't actually much of a guild now are they?
Of your 10 pieces of advice for new recruits, 6 are based around promoting socialization and proper etiquette, similar to what we would find in a guild that is more of a social/casual guild and 2 pieces of advice (#9 and #10) are not conducive to a hardcore mindset and would not be guiding principles for the hardcore guild or the hardcore player.
No 9 and 10 aren’t important at all. Remember that when your main tank has to leave because it was a choice between his wife or his guild. Remember that when your best warrior leaves after he’s gotten onslaught girdle and bonereavers edge (or dft, or deoi, or …) and tells you that he’s burnt out. In b4 hardcore players would choose their guild over their wife…so they do, but they die because they neglected their health, or they go to jail because didn’t pay child support. (we’ll just replace them, right, good luck replacing all that gear that unlike in retail takes quite a long time to accumulate).
If you are not able to compete, you are disposable and you are replaced. Real life happens. When it does, you are demoted and replaced. No hard feelings... The raid must go on and the content must be downed. We will not work with your new schedule. We are not interested in a part time raider. You are replaced, best of luck.
This is the main reason why a casual label would not be appropriate to my guild nor many other guilds where social etiquette matters. I will bench players who don’t compete, Raiders either meet standards or they don’t and I don’t work around new schedules.
If I labeled my guild as Social the recruits I would get 9/10 times would not be able to make it in our environment (unable to compete as you would state it) and would be a waste of my time. We’ve been recruiting actively for four months at this point and have already cut out dozens of recruits as well as been told by several recruits that we are just a bit too hardcore for them. I’ve also been told that our organization is incredible and far exceeds that of other hardcore guilds they have spoken with.
My guild expects near perfect attendance, playtime that nears or exceeds full time employment, and is currently already testing recruits on our own aws-hosted test realm running custom mangos updated to match all known classic values. The only difference that I can tell from what you describe as hardcore is I expect all that but also expect my members to maintain a pleasant social environment as well.
The issue here is that they are being mislabeled as "hardcore" when they are quite literally the antithesis to values that would be found in a hardcore raiding atmosphere. This can be misleading for players who are looking for information on how to actually succeed in a hardcore guild. They will prepare their mic, they will open their hearts, fill out their guild app and join the raid expecting a hardcore social experience... They will be greeted with a bunch of sweaty cavemen (me included) screeching at them for not knowing the mechanics to the fight they have never seen. They will fail and be replaced immediately. Your guild is social. You place an emphasis on community. Embrace that label and play for the social experience, because THAT is what makes the game valuable for you and your guild. Just don't misrepresent yourself as a hardcore guild. It will be disappointing for hardcore players who apply to your social guild and it will be disappointing for players who don't know any better to see a guide like this and expect a warm and welcoming atmosphere in the hardcore scene. Let the hardcore scene be what it is... Let them proudly wave their banner and lets define that environment as hardcore, so as not to confuse it with anything else. You should not try to reclaim that title and redefine it. Hardcore is not warm, it is not welcoming, it is not tolerant and it is not a pleasant social experience. Let those players silo themselves and interact with one another under the banner of playing hardcore.
Casual, social, hardcore... We use some of these labels to help draw in a group of individuals who we can relate to and who will blend well together. Use the proper terms when recruiting for and advertising for your guild. If you are primarily looking for social players, don't try to recruit hardcore players because they will be everything you hate. Topic should be "Ways to Succeed in a Vanilla social raiding guild - Be social".
This entire rant is where we fundamentally disagree. I propose a better label for what you call Hardcore: Asocial-Performance Guild, or how bout Toxic Hardcore, or socially-inept competitive.
Since you brought up the unwelcoming nature of it all, let’s discuss the putative “actual hardcore” scene and the sweaty cavemen in it. We wouldn’t want mislead recruits into thinking that these hardcore guilds are quiet places where everyone does their own thing outside of raids and all communication will be nonsocial business.
The majority of the guilds that I’ve experienced that closest match what you repeatedly hold up as the “actual hardcore” I’ve seen are much better defined by the rampant, misogyny, sexism, racism, alt-right propaganda, and inability to function socially than it is by any cold, unwelcoming, drive mercenary-like asocial performance. These guilds definitely have social aspects…it’s just that the aspect just tends to be one completely undesirable to me and many other highly competent players.
Really what I’ve gathered from this is that many people are applying the hardcore retail mentality to classic wow. That mentality is propped up and made possible by server transfers, world wide guild recruitment, and significant paths to skip raid tiers (catch up mechanics) present in retail wow that just weren’t present in vanilla wow.
I’m not misleading any recruit by calling my guild hardcore. Standards are transparent, enforced, and hardcore. If a recruit seeks an Asocial-Performance guild they won’t make it into my guild and they can roll their dice with the “hardcore” guilds you describe and enjoy jumping from guild to guild as they fall apart while mine clears the content and has a damn good time doing it.
In short, I will not let what you describe as hardcore (or the retail hardcore toxicity) to redefine what I’ve repeatedly seen in my own guilds and from the guilds that win server first races, is actually essential to maintaining a hardcore team that performs and stays together for longer than 6 months.
Your posts are, ironically, full of nothing but offensive vitriolic strawmans against people that are actually willing to put time into the game and be good. Unfortunately, this is not your inferiority-complex hugbox. Don't give social advice and label it hardcore advice. You do nothing but mislead any beginners reading this, like I once was misled over a decade ago.
Like, what is this absurdity: "The majority of the guilds that I’ve experienced that closest match what you repeatedly hold up as the “actual hardcore” I’ve seen are much better defined by the rampant, misogyny, sexism, racism, alt-right propaganda, and inability to function socially than it is by any cold, unwelcoming, drive mercenary-like asocial performance." How does this have anything to do with video games, or socialization? Half of these words don't even make sense. All of them are blatantly untrue. Hardcore guilds are the least "-ist" place I've ever experienced in the internet, because nothing matters besides performance.
Your posts are, ironically, full of nothing but offensive vitriolic strawmans against people that are actually willing to put time into the game and be good. Unfortunately, this is not your inferiority-complex hugbox. Don't give social advice and label it hardcore advice. You do nothing but mislead any beginners reading this, like I once was misled over a decade ago.
Like, what is this absurdity: "The majority of the guilds that I’ve experienced that closest match what you repeatedly hold up as the “actual hardcore” I’ve seen are much better defined by the rampant, misogyny, sexism, racism, alt-right propaganda, and inability to function socially than it is by any cold, unwelcoming, drive mercenary-like asocial performance." How does this have anything to do with video games, or socialization? Half of these words don't even make sense. All of them are blatantly untrue. Hardcore guilds are the least "-ist" place I've ever experienced in the internet, because nothing matters besides performance.
Well, i was planning to address the "war and peace" post from above. ( TLDR plz )
Buuuuut, you decided to go full retard.
1. This is a game, more especially this is a forum, about a game, that isnt even the version of THE game, yet at least.
2. What really gets me is that you did not mention the weekly raid gatherings at Starbucks, alternating with Panera Bread on odd/even solar scales of course. We dont want to show favoritism.
3. I identify as a female blood elf rogue, that means I'm immune to social media stuns. *godly racial* (amiright)
Your posts are, ironically, full of nothing but offensive vitriolic strawmans
Don't you mean Strawmen? Or Strawomen? You are talking about more than one strawman, right?
"The majority of the guilds that I’ve experienced that closest match what you repeatedly hold up as the “actual hardcore” I’ve seen are much better defined by the rampant, misogyny, sexism, racism, alt-right propaganda, and inability to function socially than it is by any cold, unwelcoming, drive mercenary-like asocial performance."
There is a quote function in this forum. I'm not sure if you are quoting someone else or yourself or yourself within another person's statement. It's all very confusing lol
I somehow wound up in what you're calling a 'toxic hardcore' guild on a pserver when they were gearing up for server-first MC. Left after a day or two because of a few personalities allowed to run rampant... sad attempts to present themselves as internet tuff-guys and amoral cynics, old news. I've got zero interest in getting involved with the kind of guild you're talking about, though. If pretending I'm friends with a bunch of randoms and listening to their stupid jokes is how I get a raid spot you can keep it.
I used to play sports at a fairly high level, no coach ever stood there saying "be social!" Yeah you need a certain level of respect and politeness or it tears the team down, but wanting everybody to be friends? Cmon.
@Lne (don't want to quote at the disadvantage of the rest of the battlegroup)
Bro(ette?)
That was some ridiculously long explanation of how you had a 1% occurence of what the hard core Vanilla scene was. Though neither of us are cool enough to be in the "world first" category like @Coldrain is. . .
Vanilla hard-core-raiding was a different animal than anything that's going on right now. I started off in a server 3rd guild on Mal'Ganis that was trying to keep pace with <EJ> and it functioned on every level. Toxic, social, and we even met up for drinks to yell at each other in person.
Then I rolled a toon on a whole other server to play with co-workers who are master tacticians in LIFE, let alone WoW. We ran it just like we did at work; pull your weight or fall to the wayside. Our alt/gear farms were done without any voice, just music over Teamspeak. (that's what us old grayhairs use to use) but because we had the guild functioning at such a high level, we didnt shut the music off until Rag. (This is during BWL by the way, so MC farming time)
We kept this rolling through AQ and into Naxx. The guild competed for server firsts the whole time on a very high pop server and we were a top 100 guild worldwide.
@Cletus and I ran with a PVP crew that was comprised of top 15 every single week in addition to the raid schedule. We maintained this for the duration of Vanilla. So I'm not exactly sure what your point is with the novel nor am I even remotely familiar with what the social justice warrior was on about.
TLDR: if you want to be a hard core raider - do it, dont suck, just fucking do it. Your raid will bask in your tears if you fall by the wayside.
If you dislike my opinion, pleas;e roll Alliance, and I'll gladly sit down with you to discuss it after Aug 27th.
( TLDR plz )
Again, though, I don't feel that there is anything wrong with hardcore asocial guilds (outside the inherent social dysfunction and toxicity that tends to be a part of them) you describe, I just know that it is not necessary, and to me, the accomplishments had in that environment ring hollow and unsatisfying.
Lne is of such an ultra-elitist disposition that they find even hardcore breakneck guilds contemptible, but they don't have the balls to outright say it. The entire post repeatedly says as much then immediately qualifies and equivocates as in the quote above.
quiet places where everyone does their own thing outside of raids and all communication will be nonsocial business
for me this is the goal. I don't need quiet like a library, but from a guild I'm just looking for people to cooperate with in a game. Run some dungeons together to get people pre-BiS, do crafts for each other, keep each other safe if somebody's getting camped etc. Go raid. If some people are friends, great, if some people are on voice chat, great-- but I don't want that to be a requirement or the point. Whether I'm friends with somebody or would rather avoid their company is my business. I'd just like the in-game guild chat channel to be about the game, so I can follow it without hearing about Chuck Norris or pogchamps or anything.
maybe this is unrealistic if I want to be in a dragonslaying crew, but if so I'll probably just stick to stabbing fools.
I don't have much to add, but I have to say: this thread is really entertaining to read. The different perspectives are fascinating.
To me, it seems like Lne is setting his aim high by requiring his guild to be hardcore in terms of performance, as well as non-toxic and socially active. The best of all worlds, so to speak. I think this will be a difficult feat to pull off, especially in Classic with the 40 man raid size. Hardcore raiders with great attitudes and social skills are rare beasts. But I don't think it's impossible either, and I wish him the best of luck with it.
I don't have much to add, but I have to say: this thread is really entertaining to read. The different perspectives are fascinating.
To me, it seems like Lne is setting his aim high by requiring his guild to be hardcore in terms of performance, as well as non-toxic and socially active. The best of all worlds, so to speak. I think this will be a difficult feat to pull off, especially in Classic with the 40 man raid size. Hardcore raiders with great attitudes and social skills are rare beasts. But I don't think it's impossible either, and I wish him the best of luck with it.
In my guild, I am not saying I wasnt social-able, because I did make many friends and talked to them in and out of raids. But its 40 man raid and probably a 60 man guild, give or take, and I didnt really know or talked to half the guild. And we were still able to clear all raids before Naxx and clear about half of Naxx before TBC came out. We werent Hardcore, Hardcore guild but we were sure Hardcore per say.
Yeah, I think being social-able in a hardcore guild is important but I mean just don't be a dick.
Show up on time, make sure your prepared, listen to the raid leader and do your job!
If its dispelling, dispel, if its healing heal, and so on...
I kinda relate it to a Football team, where you dont need to be best friends, you just need to gel on the field (in a raid) and when it matters like practice (progression) and preparation (getting pre-raid gear, potions, flasks)!
@OP, since I sounded a bit derogatory I should point out I got no problem with your approach and wish you good luck.
I think a lot of the friction comes from your choice of title... "How to succeed as a hardcore raider IN MY GUILD" maybe leads to a more respectful discussion. Thanks for starting the conversation though, it's interesting to see what different people think.
Meh let me not write a novel for you people who can't handle that; I'm sorry my attempts to parse out and respond to the many ideas presented was too much for some.
Most of the objections boil down to just pedantic cries about the use of the world social without actually reading (comprehending?) the content. Apparently "social" is a trigger word for cavemen.
Call it social, call it active, the emphasis I made throughout the entire document was qualities that foster group effort that are often lacking in the "I'm an elite hardcore player and better then you noobs, fuk noobs" types.
Being social doesn't mean being best friends or friends with everyone, it means you are there and recognizably present in the team and not annoying to be around. Active might be a better word for people who are triggered by the word social.
ColdRain It seems to me that you have no idea what the pserver "hardcore" scene is actually like (has unfortunately become). I am guessing that you have great retail mythic experience and the hardcore you experience and describe is 100% accurate to that version of wow as I saw it while leading a mythic raid team. It is not what I've personally experienced on pservers or in actual vanilla.
The block quote where you tried to quote but did so poorly was in reference to pserver hardcore farming guilds, where the toxicity is well known (although not omnipresent (there are hardcore guilds that are not toxic)). I mean if you want a quick example of misogyny bleeding through look at Grizzly's recruitment video which features Johnnysins (love the video though ;).
I apologize I could have been more accurate in drawing a distinction from retail hardcore, but in my defense, I didn't because retail hardcore isn't even the same game as classic, vanilla, or pserver wow
Dolamite Your last reply mirrors a lot of my experience, but I never rerolled, and I led my guild from level 30ish (when we formed back in 2004) until mid/late Tbc when I quit to go to law school. I too fondly remember silent farming runs of both bwl and mc with music in vent and then later ts.
The only nit I'd pick is that the advice of "if you want to be a hardcore raider - do it, don't suck, just fucking do it," is worthless non-advice because just do it doesn't help anyone actually do it (unless you are trying to be a motivational speaker. the "Your raid will bask in your tears if you fall by the wayside," portion of that advice is 100% accurate for most raiding guilds though regardless of how they label themselves.
As noted above the hardcore scene today in retail is completely different from what it was in vanilla, which is also completely different from most of the hardcore pserver guilds as well.
Morph Thanks for the well wishes; I built the best of both worlds guild in actual vanilla and we're doing it again :) I don't know our exact ranking back in vanilla (in the days before accurate tracking and no xserver comms) but we were one of the only 2 horde guilds in naxx on our server. All this while actually liking each other.
Lendryn
( TLDR plz )
Again, though, I don't feel that there is anything wrong with hardcore asocial guilds (outside the inherent social dysfunction and toxicity that tends to be a part of them) you describe, I just know that it is not necessary, and to me, the accomplishments had in that environment ring hollow and unsatisfying.
Lne is of such an ultra-elitist disposition that they find even hardcore breakneck guilds contemptible, but they don't have the balls to outright say it. The entire post repeatedly says as much then immediately qualifies and equivocates as in the quote above.
Actually, no I don't find hardcore breakneck guilds contemptible, they do some pretty impressive things and it takes both discipline and skill to do what they do. As I stated though, I find that type of play unfulfilling. I find toxic behavior contemptible and they are not always the same. This is the contempt that you misperceived.
But arguing that my advice for socials is worthless/inapplicable translates to accepting toxicity and inactivity, and fuck that noise.
Meanderthal Everyone is triggered by the advice being for everyone but ignoring the advice means that the values don't matter and they do matter. They are in my experience the values most neglected and the ones that cause the biggest problems in developing hardcore guilds and that's why I provided the advice. Anyway thanks for trying to be less inflammatory.
Lne, since you're giving advice to everyone else I'm going to offer you a piece:
Try not to be condescending and call names whenever someone disagrees with you. You've said you value social competence in others, so maybe work on your own.
Apologies for saying this in public rather than via private message, but I'm not seeing a pm option.
Most of the objections boil down to just pedantic cries about the use of the world social without actually reading (comprehending?) the content. Apparently "social" is a trigger word for cavemen.
Call it social, call it active, the emphasis I made throughout the entire document was qualities that foster group effort that are often lacking in the "I'm an elite hardcore player and better then you noobs, fuk noobs" types.
Being social doesn't mean being best friends or friends with everyone, it means you are there and recognizably present in the team and not annoying to be around. Active might be a better word for people who are triggered by the word social.
This is actually a huge difference. The difference between taking an active role in a guild (required for a hardcore raider) and being social (not required for a hardcore raider) is very different and a very important distinction should be made while using said terms. Hardcore guilds do have qualities that foster a group effort. In fact, this is the emphasis of a hardcore guild. The major group activity (raiding) is prioritized above all else. Prioritized above less important things (to hardcore guilds) like socialization for example.
Actually, no I don't find hardcore breakneck guilds contemptible, they do some pretty impressive things and it takes both discipline and skill to do what they do. As I stated though, I find that type of play unfulfilling. I find toxic behavior contemptible and they are not always the same. This is the contempt that you misperceived.
You find this unfulfilling because you are not a hardcore player, nor are you part of a hardcore guild that is focused on progression. You are a social player and are more concerned with the social aspects of the game. Define toxicity. What you find toxic, I find value in. I don't want guild events and guild spam clogging up my chat box. I dont want a guild that is pulled in 3 different directions trying to micromanage peoples social interactions while simultaneously pushing content... I don't want low level players in my guild asking for assistance. I want a guild full of like-minded killers who are using their time to maximize their gear and throughput so that we down content as efficiently as possible. I want a raid team that demands competence and does not tolerate weak players. This is the atmosphere that I enjoy. I find many traits of social/casual guilds to be toxic, which is why the distinction between hardcore, casual and social is so important. You want a group of like-minded individuals to play with.
Toxicity is subjective... A new player having a social conversation on discord or telling a joke during a raid because he has voip privileges is, in my opinion, toxic. For many casual/social players, the idea of silencing raiders who are not part of the upper hierarchy of a guild is also likely toxic; we are two different groups of people with two very different definitions of toxicity.
When we are drawing out these definitions based on our own anecdotal experiences, you have to wonder at which point you're just wrong. How many people need to disagree with you and your definition of hardcore, before you simply accept that you are attempting to redefine the word to protect your own ego. You are a social player. You lead a social guild. You are not hardcore. Being hardcore is not superior to being social, they are just different states of raiding. If you feel as though being defined as a social is derogatory or demeaning, this is likely a self-projection due to your own vulnerabilities and issues with the terminology. We use this nomenclature as a means to identify the core philosophies or guiding principles of a set of people. While these principles are not set in stone, and guilds can take a hybrid approach to leadership, the definitions themselves are still important for identifying similarities in a specific demographic of players. Based on your advice to your new recruits, your guild places a VERY heavy emphasis on the social aspect of the guild, and thus you are a social raiding guild. Perhaps you take some inspiration from the hardcore experience and try to tailor your guild to be a progressive social raiding guild, but your guild places the MOST value on being social (as was implied by your tips). This would indicate that your are a Social Raiding Guild, which is different from a hardcore guild, and is different from a casual guild.
This is also why your hardcore raiding tips, are not valuable tips for a hardcore recruit and would be better suited for a social recruit in a social raiding guild. Tips for a social player will place an emphasis on socialization (as yours do). Tips for a hardcore player will place an emphasis on performance and optimization (as yours do not).
The hardcore recruit must provide value in the form of throughput and he will be valuable. If he creates a deficit, he will be disposable. Socialization will not be an important variable when considering if a new recruit is a strong guild fit from a hardcore raid perspective.
Stfuppercut after this reply I'm not sure if you are misinformed, trolling, or so threatened by social elements that you will go out of your way to purge them from your definition of hardcore, but I'll try to focus on why you are wrong and not your motivations.
I explained in detail why the label of hardcore fits me and my guild and your suggested label is inappropriate.
You state we are not progression focused--we absolutely are.
As an experienced in-game and IRL leader, I just happen to know the value of group and team cohesion and the impact a rewarding social environment has on these aspects, so I don't neglect social considerations or pretend they do not matter.
That's the bottom line on our disagreement, but I'll expand below.
I'm not drawing out definitions based on my experience any more than you are.
But, as you are definitely,
drawing out these definitions based on [y]our own anecdotal experiences,
Let's look at actual definitions of hardcore as your definitions are throwing all kinds of things into the definition that aren't necessary/essential while excluding things that aren't mutually exclusive from what it means to be hardcore.
I'll just use the first result in a google search for a definition for ease and to avoid cherry-picking definitions; https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Hardcore_raiding
Hardcore raiding is used to describe a guild, guild alliance, or raiding organization that places focus on progressing and farming raid content. The term is contrasted by the term casual raiding.
Pros: In general fast raid progression; Access to the best loot in the game; Access to the top-level raid instances
Cons: Requires serious time commitment to the game; Often restrictions on classes, talents and loot access; Not accessible to new players.
By this definition, our guild is definitely hardcore. Our focus is on progression and efficiently farming content to gear for the next content, pvp, or our own edification. Additionally, we were among the fastest to progress in our vanilla days and cleared content while it was current on the private servers we played on. We require a serious time commitment (20 hours bar minimum (many of us will exceed 80 hours play a week), 12 hours scheduled raiding where needed); We require optimal raiding specs for classes as well as recruiting and bringing the optimal comp for the content. We have never had a problem with access to the top-level raid instances or the best loot in the game. We are somewhat accessible to new players so long as they are willing to learn and able to meet standards within a short window after starting.
https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Casual_raiding
Casual raiding is a subjective term, used to distinguish raiding that is slower-paced than "hardcore raiding". The term is often used by guilds to indicate that their raiding is not as demanding as the average raiding guild on their server. Depending on the guild, they may require less of a time commitment, lower quality pre-guild gear, or may indicate that the guild is open to prospective raiders who have never set foot in a raid before.
Casual raiding guilds will have a set time to raid, but they are not mandatory. If players show up late to the start time, they will still be invited to the raid. If players leave early from the raid, there will be no punishment. If players want to skip a raid day and focus on other things in wow, it is perfectly okay.
Casual raiding guilds will take people into raids that have little to no experience. They will also take any player who wants to raid, even if their gear is not up to par for the raid. Casual raiding gives everyone the experience of raiding, no matter what their skill level is.
Pros: Offers access to raid content without serious time commitments.; Raid interaction tends to be more friendly and open to newer players; Often times fewer loot restrictions than hardcore raiding.
Cons: It is much slower raid progression-wise than hardcore raiding; Class balance tends to be less stable since there are fewer restrictions; Loot distribution is far more random than in hardcore raiding and may be less rewarding to more dedicated players.
So based on the amount of stuff that doesn't apply to us (see strike throughs), casual raiding (the alternative to Hardcore) doesn't apply.
Let's just look at the definition of hardcore again first definition from google https://www.google.com/search?{google:acceptedSuggestion}oq=hardcore&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=hardcore
Noun
1. the most active, committed, or strict members of a group or movement.
Adjective
1. highly committed in one's support for or dedication to something.
I would say our commitment level far exceeds that of most players, and my members are highly committed. We started recruiting actively 4 months before launch, we have a Test realm hosted by aws running a custom branch of vmangos updated to match all known classic values and maintained by professional software engineer, we are running two progressive raid teams and I manage the guild as my literal full-time job.
If our guild somehow doesn't meet the definitions of both wow hardcore raiding as defined by wowwiki and the first definition on google as well as the first definition of hardcore, then sure you are right I'm just trying to redefine words to protect my ego--I'm not.
I'm sorry if are threatened or confused by the idea that a guild doesn't have to throw a rewarding social environment out the window to be hardcore, and even more sorry that you haven't had the opportunity to be in a rewarding environment that excels.
I also apologize for being long winded, But before I retired my job literally focused on definitions and their applications, and in my understanding of the definitions, both colloquially as well as from my experience as a guild leader who has dedicated literal years of my life to vanilla wow, you are simply wrong.
I wonder who must
simply accept that you are attempting to redefine the word to protect your own ego
I don't care about protecting my ego, but I won't let definitions change just because your experience is different anymore than I'm suggesting you do so.
Nor will I be compelled by arguments that just repeated. Saying something more often doesn't make it more true.
Beyond this, this discussion has been pretty thorough and I've previously made the points I intended to as well as conceding that my title wasn't perfect or that I should have prefaced it that it assumes the fundamentals of hardcore raiding. I don't know what position you've had in your experiences with hardcore raiding, but I think that most leaders, in general, would understand the value of my advice.
Again I've had to remove so many more players from my raid team because of their failure in these areas than I ever had because of performance issues. And, you may pretend they don't have a serious impact on raid progression, but when the ineptitude of a raider in these area's start pissing off your raid team or driving away core raiders or new recruits then they definitely do.
I said it before, but it bears repeating, in vanilla hardcore raiding you did not have an endless supply of raiders where you could just ignore the social health of your guild. If your raid team lost a geared player for whatever reason it could be a significant blow, particularly if they were a tank or key healer. The importance of this may be forgotten by players who started in retail or play on private mega servers, but if classic has vanilla-like servers and doesn't have server transfers I again say leaders and raider ignore this advice at their own peril.
If you insist on distinguishing your own flavor of hardcore from mine I suggest that you label what you repeatedly go back to as breakneck or try hard hardcore.
as to toxicity, there are generally recognized traits of toxicity in leadership and workplace studies and to quote, the top result from a search for toxic workplace https://www.theladders.com/career-advice/5-signs-of-a-toxic-workplace
The hallmark characteristic of a toxic leader[Raider] is their narcissism. They are “all about” themselves. They view themselves as categorically brighter and more talented than anyone else around. As a result, they believe they are deserving of special treatment–the rules that apply to everyone else really are beneath them.
Toxic leader[Raider] consistently relate to others in a condescending manner, they take credit for others’ successes, and they manipulate others to ensure that they look good. Trust and teamwork deteriorate in their areas; they have a high turnover rate in their department, and they will eventually destroy the health of the organization.
I spoke earlier of the high turn over--Seen it repeatedly and indeed the arguments in favor of your definition have again implied a high turn over. I spoke of the impact on trust and teamwork.
I'll gladly consider any further input you have on the topic so long as it's not a mere repetiion of what you've already said. In particular, I'd like to read your drafted definition of hardcore.
I appreciate your taking the time to put together a response that merits consideration as you have in your previous responses as well as your continued respectful manner in which you have conveyed them.
I apologize if I came across as condescending or insulting as meander indicated I had at least in some of my responses. I was admittedly frustrated by the repetition of arguments while sidestepping and not addressing what I stated (as well as the direct condescension of coldrain) and this unfortunately affected my response.
Meanderthal I don't believe I ever called anyone names for disagreeing with me. As far as I can tell the only name I used was cavemen and that was the label chosen by the person I was responding to.
That said, I'm sorry if my frustration led me to be more careless with my words or sound condescending.