I know we all have different reasons for thinking that WoW is screwed up now. For some people it's "muh social aspect" and how LFD took all the fun out of spamming trade chat for 3 hours looking for a healer. For some people, it was the massive content changes in the Shattering. Some people have an irrational hatred of flying mounts, or think the Horde shouldn't be allowed to have a "pretty" race, or something something alliance shamans and horde paladins.
But these are all superficial complaints compared to the real problems and the real reasons why everything sucks now: the slow erosion of the game's internal logic. I already provided one example in a separate thread, noting that the fastest route from point A to point B can now involve going halfway to your destination, then backtracking to your starting continent, then going to a different planet, then backtracking to your starting planet. Now I'll provide some more examples:
1) From Classic through MoP, professions were basically "sane". Making gear for level 85-90 players, or harvesting nodes in level 85-90 zones, required more levels in a profession than making gear for level 80-85 players or harvesting nodes in level 80-85 zones, which in turn required more levels than level 70-80 players and zones, and so on. And access to higher profession levels was always purchased in 75-level increments. Then along comes WoD and you still need 600 levels in Blacksmithing to make gear for level 90 players, but gear for level 91 players can be made by a level 1 blacksmith... and there were 100 levels of Wod blacksmithing instead of 75. It was insane and retarded and it made no sense. BfA tried to "fix" this problem by applying it to all expansions, but we're still stuck with a system where gear for level 120 characters is easier to craft than gear for level 60 characters.
2) From Classic through WoD, shamans and hunters started out wearing leather, and could upgrade to mail at level 40, while warriors and paladins started out with mail and could upgrade to plate at level 40. All gear that could possibly drop in the game, all of the loot tables for all of the level 1-39 monsters, all of the rewards for level 1-39 quests, etc., were all based on this system, and on the assumption that from levels 1 through 39, certain armor types would not be needed and certain stats would not be needed on certain armor types. Then along comes Legion and suddenly shamans and hunters now start out using mail and warriors and paladins start out using plate. Heirlooms and quest rewards were altered to compensate, but guess what Blizzard forgot. That's right... they forgot all about world and dungeon drops. To my knowledge, there are still no plate items below level 40 except for the new quest rewards.
3) I'm currently leveling a resto shaman by spamming dungeon finder. I'm going to see if I can get her up to 110 before Classic drops. She just passed level 85. Now here's the funny part: at level 85, she could queue for normal Panda dungeons, normal Cat dungeons, Heroic cat dungeons, and Heroic Hour of Twilight dungeons. I did manage to squeeze in a single Hour of Twilight dungeon for shits and giggles. But as soon as she dinged 86, she was restricted to normal MoP and normal cat dungeons. She is too high-level for Heroic cat dungeons but not for Normal cat dungeons. This is the exact opposite of how heroic dungeons are supposed to work.
4) remember when the differences between heirlooms weren't just cosmetic? Remember when the Stained Shadowcraft set was agility leather, and therefore for rogues, while the preened ironfeather set was intellect leather and therefore for druids? Remember when the Charmed Ancient Bone Bow was the PvE hunter weapon, and the Upgraded Dwarven Hand Cannon was the PvP hunter weapon? Remember when there was a REASON for these to be different items, before some idiot decided that every item's stats should magically change based on the class and spec of whoever was using it?
Basically, when WoW was first designed, everything in it was designed with at least some minimal degree of regard for how everything else in the game worked. Everything was designed around a singular set of assumptions. As expansions have progressed, systems have gotten removed and replaced without regard for how they affect (or are affected by) the bigger picture, and as a result, nothing makes sense anymore. The game has become insane. This is the real problem. Not "ermagherd flying mounts ruined world PvP", or "kung fu pandas are stupid", or "WoD didn't have enough raid tiers" or "I hate grinding for azerite", but total unraveling of the basic logic on which the whole game is built. While many other complaints are lodged only by people who've been playing for a long time, this disintegration of the game's logic is readily apparent even to people who didn't start playing until yesterday.
It's also quite easy to notice that the vast majority of this unraveling occurred in the WoD prepatch or later. For all of their faults, the first four expansions were at least sane... mostly. There are minor exceptions. For example, Cataclysm deserves criticism for its failure to bring flying to the Belf and Draenei starting zones, thereby underscoring, rather than correcting, their lack of proper integration into the old world. A lot of weapons that were obviously intended to be used as stat sticks (like strength crossbows) were left high and dry by MoP's removal of the ranged/relic slot. But little oversights like these were nothing compared to the avalanche of madness that we got from WoD onward.
Anyway it's 1:30 AM and the entire pot of coffee that I drank today is starting to wear off so here's a meme, goodnight.
Blizzards gear progression through expansion packs was too drastic and honestly turned me off. From 60-61 the gear should have been a gradual increase without consideration for tier gear. Gear drops from vanilla should have had some use in tbc expansion, but it seemed like a few quests in in hellfire peninsula and everything was simply outdated and easily replaced.
Blizzards gear progression through expansion packs was too drastic and honestly turned me off. From 60-61 the gear should have been a gradual increase without consideration for tier gear. Gear drops from vanilla should have had some use in tbc expansion, but it seemed like a few quests in in hellfire peninsula and everything was simply outdated and easily replaced.
Players that had t3 only replaced that in Kara though.
I think the problem of not upgrading content to the new game logic was there from the very beginning. Ammo pouch for hunters in the beginning gave you a buff on the ranged attack speed. In patch 3.1 this logic was removed, but for at least two expansions (dunno from MOP onwards) all the pouch and quiver were still in game, but useless. Why would you waste a bag space for a bag with no advantages? And this made some quest rewards, some crafted item etc. useless.
Blizzards gear progression through expansion packs was too drastic and honestly turned me off. From 60-61 the gear should have been a gradual increase without consideration for tier gear. Gear drops from vanilla should have had some use in tbc expansion, but it seemed like a few quests in in hellfire peninsula and everything was simply outdated and easily replaced.
Players that had t3 only replaced that in Kara though.
Which doesnt sound bad, until you realize your sentence can also be rewritten as "The gear I worked to obtain trough tireless efforts showing up and breaking my back for the guild for the past two years lasted a whole two weeks into the expansion before I replaced it"
Some good points made here but I’d like to add, without going into specifics, I think that the project was simply a victim of its own success.
Like any successful IP, the huge opportunity to make money wasn’t ignored by Blizzard.
Good points but it's a lot of words just to say retail sucks. Plus all those things you mentioned that you say don't really matter, do matter. They added to the slow addition of the instant gratification platform the game has become. My fear is the instant grat will seep back in and ruin it once again. I'll give it a year before they can't leave it alone and muck it all up and chase us off again never to return. It's inevitable because most folks can't just leave a good thing alone.
I agree with teebling , your overarching point is still just a symptom of bureaucratic dysfunction over at Blizzard from them having been acquired by Activision. Priorities shifted over at the office ever since then — one of the original lead designers Mark Kern recently put out a long tweet about it:
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1162375992624570368.html
I think people are sweating the details right now because they want to decide what the original spirit of the game was and what can be genuinely improved despite the dogma of the #nochanges mob.
If Kevin Jordan isn't spewing bullshit over on his stream then in many ways the spirit of WoW was him; he was the original impetus for the two faction system when everyone else at Blizzard wanted a PvE-centric one-faction experience like Everquest, he was the lead class designer who branched the classes into three distinct specs and decided which were useful in raids and how they'd be geared.
Pretty interesting points, and nice explanation at the link fromLendryn .
I also think classic was a big experiment on different shades of gratification to keep you invested and it worked out as we know.
I mean while classic mostly get praised as a 'delayed gratification' machine, people tend to forget that a lot of activity (questing, crafting and even casting big spells) is more like instant gratification / satisfaction. And that is also why it's so addictive and great and I haven't even tapped in the social aspect.
Some good points made here but I’d like to add, without going into specifics, I think that the project was simply a victim of its own success.
Like any successful IP, the huge opportunity to make money wasn’t ignored by Blizzard.
Wise words indeed.
Some good points made here but I’d like to add, without going into specifics, I think that the project was simply a victim of its own success.
Like any successful IP, the huge opportunity to make money wasn’t ignored by Blizzard.
This, and that most bad ideas aren't discernibly bad ideas until you have a few years of hindsight. Like the semi-popular perspective that flying mounts were an enormous detriment to the game is still pretty new. That only became mainstream among players in MoP/WoD era. There are plenty of other examples that didn't seem like bad ideas at the time.
Pretty interesting points, and nice explanation at the link from@Lendryn .
I also think classic was a big experiment on different shades of gratification to keep you invested and it worked out as we know.
I mean while classic mostly get praised as a 'delayed gratification' machine, people tend to forget that a lot of activity (questing, crafting and even casting big spells) is more like instant gratification / satisfaction. And that is also why it's so addictive and great and I haven't even tapped in the social aspect.
I agree greatly with you. It seems like Blizzard (and other companies) feel as though players need fast, equal gratifications to keep a user experience the same. However, it's the hard and more demanding grinds that appeal heavily to me in a game like Classic WoW. Items like Sulfuras are what make the game so cool to me. You have to go through so much but the payoff is so great. The vast majority of players won't get this item, and to me that's okay. That's what makes an MMO great imo. But now we see most modern games abandoning that for easy, equal victories.
push button, receive dungeon
push button, receive raid
things were more meaningful when they took longer and were more difficult to get. Spamming world chat for hours trying to find a tank sucked on the surface but damn well meant that group meant more to you when you got it.
I prefer the slower pace of the original game. I don't like the fast pace of the modern game. Fine for some people, but it's not for me.
These aren't superficial complaints for me.
Some good points made here but I’d like to add, without going into specifics, I think that the project was simply a victim of its own success.
Like any successful IP, the huge opportunity to make money wasn’t ignored by Blizzard.
Wasn’t ignored by Activision-Blizzard.
People forget Blizzard is not an independent studio; it’s never been. And while they were riding the success wave i imagine they had loads of leeway to negotiate for artistic freedoms.
The moment they stopped reaching targets, however, you get cash shop, attempts at 6-month subscription grabs... mobile games...
things were more meaningful when they took longer and were more difficult to get. Spamming world chat for hours trying to find a tank sucked on the surface but damn well meant that group meant more to you when you got it.
I prefer the slower pace of the original game. I don't like the fast pace of the modern game. Fine for some people, but it's not for me.
These aren't superficial complaints for me.
Agreed. Once you found that healer or that tank, you were likely to friend them and run dungeons together in the future as well. Perhaps they introduced you to their guild, or vice versa. Maybe you joined their Ventrilo server to shoot the shit and got to know each other well. Many of my friendships started within the digital confines of WoW and thereafter crossed into real life.
Although OP has some good points, he started off by flippantly dismissing the most prominent criticisms of WoW expansions (LFG, flying mounts) without attempting to address them. I believe those QoL changes did more to harm the game than any of the points OP raised.