I don't want to bring over the non stop posts about Loot Trading being announced to be in Classic WoW. But I did want to share my opinion on the topic here and see what you all have to think about the discussion going on with Loot Trading.
Most of the talking points against Loot Trading that are discussed usually go,
It's not the WoW Vanilla Authentic Experience.
The ninja looting (where friends all roll for an item).
#NoChanges
And the points people discuss for Loot Trading that I have seen are,
It saves GM time!
It saves players time.
Who cares it effects nothing.
If there is ninja looting, the server will deal with it by black listing those players.
... maybe a few more that I can't remember.
I think it's really easy to lean into being for Loot trading, because we don't necessarily know how people, or even whole server communities will react to Loot Trading when it's actually being played. Maybe there won't be any ninja looting, and if there are, there will be consequences for those people?
After reading and thinking about it more, I am definitely against Loot Trading being in Classic WoW. But really, either way I will play and enjoy it. I just feel it would really suck if I'm in a dungeon or a raid with a pug and there is a group of friends sneakily stealing loot for themselves by having multiple rolls. Mostly because no one will really know. Unless people look to see if that person equips that items, or if someone who lost the roll ends up equipping that item that was traded to them by a friend who did win the roll.
The solution people usually offer is just, "don't add Loot Trading, and don't offer GM services for people who messed up rolls/Master Looter misclicks." or
"just have GM services without Loot Trading."
This is where I really wanted to express my opinion, as a suggestion.
What if everyone in a group has to agree (with a toggle) to Loot Trading in order for it to be active, otherwise it's not active and it's BoP like in Vanilla. So with an organised group with a master looter. All of the party/raid/guild members can agree to Loot Trading and have the assurance that if the master looter messes up, or someone decides after the fact and wants to let others re-roll, they can then use Loot Trading in an organised way to redistribute the loot. On the other hand, if you are in a pug and you do not want Loot Trading, but the all of the others do, they can just kick you and find someone more accommodating.
I'm not really sure if this might just add more issues with large groups of friends strong arming people into Loot Trading and then ninja looting anyway. Anyway just a suggestion for a discussion hah.
I think people just don't have anything else to argue about #NoChanges! ya dig?
Ye I really hope they avoid using Loot Trading.
I wish they had some balls and just used the old system without gm support on loot issues.
BUT, they most likely wont because it makes it cheaper for them not having gm's working on wrongly distributed loot.
What if everyone in a group has to agree (with a toggle) to Loot Trading in order for it to be active, otherwise it's not active and it's BoP like in Vanilla.
It will never happen, but even if it did it would be a bad idea. Anyone using Loot Trading would stand out as being "up" to something and it wouldn't really fix the pressure on GMs if people collectively decide not to use it. ML in dungeons is a big no-no.
On the other hand, if you are in a pug and you do not want Loot Trading, but the all of the others do, they can just kick you and find someone more accommodating.
Yeah, that's a big problem. Back when people in retail could still use ML, they would "reserve" tier tokens and very powerful items for "organizing" a raid group. You know how frustrating it is to look for a PUG to clear something and see a bunch of assholes who can't stomach a bit of RNG just standing there and waiting for a group to form so they can get guaranteed loot on whatever they needed with minimal extra effort involved (anyone can lead a heroic raid in retail).
Yes, I know you don't have to apply if you don't agree with the terms and that's fair game, but it's still shitty and divisive nonetheless. Good luck pulling something like that in Vanilla where it takes significant effort to organize a PUG raid and the only reasonable thing you can reserve in raids are materials.
I see every kick in the nuts as an opportunity for something better.
I proposed my solution to this in an older thread . I'll try to get as many Horde guilds as I can to work together and log all the assholes on the server in a collective "blacklist". If anyone can show, beyond any doubt, that an item was ninja looted in any dungeon (be it RFC or BRD) via screenshots then we put that player on a blacklist and share that blacklist with our guilds, then further encourage whoever plans on making a dungeon group to check that list before signing up anyone. Also, I'll try to push for people to agree to kick out of our guilds whoever is caught doing something like that. With Loot Trading in place there is no excuse for missclicking or anything.
I wonder how difficult it is to code to only allow loot trading in raids...
I mean, that's where the problem is, right?
I didnt even know you could open a ticket and have GM help for genuine mess up roles. I mean If an entire guild did it I could see it being done in remote and rare circumstances, but is this really a thing that happened? If so just scrap it. Its not that hard to click the right roll, and if you do mess it up thats for the guild to sort out.
It has already been announced that it will be in game so there is no point hoping or wishing that it wont, however it would have been nice if they restricted it to guild groups and raids
I like your suggestion krispex but implementing it would take you back to square one again which is the ‘no changes’ argument seeing as this is not a vanilla solution.
Blizzard have used get-out clauses in their PR often, with phrases like ‘we will make Classic as authentic as possible’. There has been an outcry which is good as they may listen, but then again maybe not.
The best solution of all, which covers every possibility of how the game turns out, is to run dungeons with guildmates and friends you can trust not to fuck you over for pixels.
I like your suggestion krispex but implementing it would take you back to square one again which is the ‘no changes’ argument seeing as this is not a vanilla solution.
Blizzard have used get-out clauses in their PR often, with phrases like ‘we will make Classic as authentic as possible’. There has been an outcry which is good as they may listen, but then again maybe not.
The best solution of all, which covers every possibility of how the game turns out, is to run dungeons with guildmates and friends you can trust not to fuck you over for pixels.
Yeah, you pretty much nailed it at the end there. If they're going to add it, which is most likely, it may be better to just find trusted people to dungeon/raid with to avoid the risk of being ninja'd by lame friend groups.
You do lose a bit of the "community" aspect of Vanilla WoW by doing so though. I remember fondly scraping together dungeon groups for low level dungeons.
I guess at least the lower level dungeons have less consequence, as there will always be a better loot upgrade quicker then if you were looking for pre bis at level 60.
However, why else would you run low level dungeons for, but to get loot and maybe the few quests you may have.
Yeah, that's a big problem. Back when people in retail could still use ML, they would "reserve" tier tokens and very powerful items for "organizing" a raid group. You know how frustrating it is to look for a PUG to clear something and see a bunch of assholes who can't stomach a bit of RNG just standing there and waiting for a group to form so they can get guaranteed loot on whatever they needed with minimal extra effort involved (anyone can lead a heroic raid in retail).
Yeah, no matter if there is loot trading or not, there will always be the people/groups that want to force others into their way.
I see every kick in the nuts as an opportunity for something better.
I proposed my solution to this in an older thread . I'll try to get as many Horde guilds as I can to work together and log all the assholes on the server in a collective "blacklist". If anyone can show, beyond any doubt, that an item was ninja looted in any dungeon (be it RFC or BRD) via screenshots then we put that player on a blacklist and share that blacklist with our guilds, then further encourage whoever plans on making a dungeon group to check that list before signing up anyone. Also, I'll try to push for people to agree to kick out of our guilds whoever is caught doing something like that. With Loot Trading in place there is no excuse for missclicking or anything.
Yeah, I've seen people talk about blacklists a bit. I think it's probably the best solution if loot trading goes live. Only thing is it's a lot of work and people have to follow it if it is to have any impact.
Also just to add something on to my original post - that I don’t think that groups of colluding people ninja-ing items will be as common as folks are making it out to be. Sure this might happen every now and again and it will suck but on the whole there are good people out there.
You’ve got to remember too that in the spirit of Classic people will be relying on each other so much - the general feeling of collaboration and teamwork will surely make players more compassionate to each other vs what you might expect from BfA where the every man for himself mentality pervades everything.
Also just to add something on to my original post - that I don’t think that groups of colluding people ninja-ing items will be as common as folks are making it out to be. Sure this might happen every now and again and it will suck but on the whole there are good people out there.
QSHFT (SH is for So Hard). This is why I'm not too worried about loot trading (even if I can see it would maybe be better to remove it or restrict it to just raids or something). I genuinely believe that 1/200 instances it is utilized, it will be used for good and not abused. When it is abused, it's gonna suck, and you got anywhere from double to quadruple the amount of people to blacklist, but it can't be that much of a problem. Thanks for putting my feelings into words, Teeb <3
The automated player report and ban system, however...
You’ve got to remember too that in the spirit of Classic people will be relying on each other so much - the general feeling of collaboration and teamwork will surely make players more compassionate to each other vs what you might expect from BfA where the every man for himself mentality pervades everything.
I really do hope it is like this, because this is how I feel as well.
The automated player report and ban system, however...
Oh yeah, a whole other topic as well. I didn't realise the impact that this change would actually make until I started seeing posts about it, and videos that people posted.
It's really got to go. I would rather see gold farming spam than get auto banned/muted by mad kids.
Given the choice between no gm support for loot fuck ups and loot trading, I'll gladly pick loot trading. I've had several master loot fuck ups over the years and a lot of it is due to shitty ui issues etc. We've also had accidental ninja looting.
Yes there will be some abuse of the loot trading system, but this is really up there in the pick your battles category of changes. It won't affect the actual game substantially. It will lead to some casual players and other pugs who join guild/friend groups getting screwed over but in reality these type of groups often reserve items of contention and masterloot bosses, so this is unlikely to substantially worsen things for casual players.
I'm about as hardcore of a vanilla player as they come and this is definitely not a change I feel even the least bit concerned over.