I still think loot trading should not be in Classic, and any GM support about it should be removed.
Lne
It won't effect
*affect
I've had several master loot fuck ups over the years
You are/were always free to contact GMs/support to handle that issue.
this is really up there in the pick your battles category of changes
The "pick your battles" mindset is defeatist in nature, not to mention a terrible flaw in argumentation. You shouldn't go with the premise that "changes need to happen" and because "some changes are better than others" we should be okay with them in order to fill some imaginary quota of changes. It is a stupid line of reasoning - like saying "murders need to happen, therefore it's best if we just kill grandma".
The bottom line is that changes which can be prevented don't need to happen.
It will lead to some casual players and other pugs who join guild/friend groups getting screwed over but in reality these type of groups often reserve items of contention and masterloot bosses,
Yes, but reserving a piece of loot beforehand is completely different from having your friends roll on it and pass it to you. It's one thing to say "if this thing drops, we're taking it - if you don't like it, you're free to leave now before the raid starts" and another thing to have your friends roll for something they don't need/can't use/have no right to pass it on to you.
Also, "in reality", most groups I've ever been part of on private servers did not reserve items. Even the PUG raids for MC were only reserving materials. PUGs are as common as they are on retail, and you're shooting yourself in the foot reserving items beforehand if you're starting from scratch, not to mention no guild is going to be okay sending 5-10 players to your raid if they're not going to be able to roll on certain items they might need.
so this is unlikely to substantially worsen things for casual players.
Casual players don't usually have entire groups of people to roll for items and pass it on to them. It will most definitely impact them and not the organized groups.
I've had several master loot fuck ups over the years
You are/were always free to contact GMs/support to handle that issue.
The "pick your battles" mindset is defeatist in nature, not to mention a terrible flaw in argumentation. You shouldn't go with the premise that "changes need to happen" and because "some changes are better than others" we should be okay with them in order to fill some imaginary quota of changes. It is a stupid line of reasoning - like saying "murders need to happen, therefore it's best if we just kill grandma".
The bottom line is that changes which can be prevented don't need to happen.
Yes, but reserving a piece of loot beforehand is completely different from having your friends roll on it and pass it to you. It's one thing to say "if this thing drops, we're taking it - if you don't like it, you're free to leave now before the raid starts" and another thing to have your friends roll for something they don't need/can't use/have no right to pass it on to you.
Also, "in reality", most groups I've ever been part of on private servers did not reserve items. Even the PUG raids for MC were only reserving materials. PUGs are as common as they are on retail, and you're shooting yourself in the foot reserving items beforehand if you're starting from scratch, not to mention no guild is going to be okay sending 5-10 players to your raid if they're not going to be able to roll on certain items they might need.
Casual players don't usually have entire groups of people to roll for items and pass it on to them. It will most definitely impact them and not the organized groups.
Re: being free to contact gms/support to handle issue-I know, I specifically noted that I'd rather have loot trading support if forced to choose that or no gm support (which is a solution being advocated for as an alternative to loot trading).
re the pick your battles statement--maybe pick your battles isn't the right phrase. This is in the category of making a mountain out of a mole hill. I'm with Teebling in expecting less than 1/200 times item trading is used it being abused. This isn't going to affect classic's game play or it's social dynamic substantially so I'm not about to care. In fact, I've spent more time typing in these type of forum threads than is justified by how little I care about this--If i wasn't waiting for classic I certainly wouldn't be posting about this .
re: pugs and reserving items: Your experience has been drastically different than mine. Many if not most of the pugs I've ran on private servers did reserve items. I'm also betting that the legendaries were reserved in your pug mcs. The likely reason nothing else but mats and legendaries were reserved in your pug mc runs is because people don't care about most mc loot.
Re: it affecting casuals. I never said it wouldn't affect them, I predicted that it would not substantially affect them. And, I stand by that assessment. I think the outcry by the vocal no changes people on this topic is way overblown and not in line with the impact it will actually have on classic. It's a mole hill not a mountain no matter how repeatedly, how passionately, or how loudly people cry about it.
Thank you for taking the time to respond to my post. I don't think we'll ever agree on this topic, but hopefully very soon time will tell whether I underestimated it's impact.
May loot trading never hurt you :)
Lne
> It's a mole hill not a mountain no matter how repeatedly, how passionately, or how loudly people cry about it.
Do you have any argument to explain this? Any argument at all? Like, how exactly isn't this going to be abused and how exactly it won't affect casuals who won't have dedicated/organized groups for dungeons most of the time.
If I have 3 friends with me and we need a 5th person to join, what exactly is going to be stopping me from loot trading items with my mates? If we're running UBRS what's stopping us from rolling need on an item we already have and then passing it to the one who doesn't have it?
AFAIK this is only going to hurt people in 5 mans anyway, and occassionally at that. Raid looting can be controlled whether that’s with DKP or in-game loot master solutions.
Maybe on the rare occasion that it does happen it will be annoying for someone collecting pre-BiS gear at level 60. Or during levelling, where it’s really not a big deal to get flashy new gear in the first place.
If it incredibly time consuming for Blizzard to remove loot trading then I’m against having it removed - IMHO there are far more important things the dev team can focus on.
If it is simple enough to remove loot trading then by all means do it and people can use tickets for any fuckups like they used to do. Done and dusted.
It’s really not a big deal for me personally.
> It's a mole hill not a mountain no matter how repeatedly, how passionately, or how loudly people cry about it.
Do you have any argument to explain this? Any argument at all? Like, how exactly isn't this going to be abused and how exactly it won't affect casuals who won't have dedicated/organized groups for dungeons most of the time.
If I have 3 friends with me and we need a 5th person to join, what exactly is going to be stopping me from loot trading items with my mates? If we're running UBRS what's stopping us from rolling need on an item we already have and then passing it to the one who doesn't have it?
You just explained it for me...in the worst case scenario as you describe, it's just not a mountain of a problem. To further the point, in order for what you just described to even manifest as a problem requires: (1) the system to be abused; (2) people to not blacklist those who do abuse it; and (3) people to not preemptiively masterloot runs they care about or suspect it being an issue in.
In the grand scheme of vanilla wow, I'm sorry but that niche scenario of abuse is less than a mole hill for me. It's irrelevant experience outside of the short time ill be leveling and prebis gearing. On top of that, even during the short window of leveling/prebis gearing, I always structure my groups such that there is minimal competition for loot and if there is potential loot competition i discuss it before the group and either accept the random chance factor or find another pug.
I know it might have the awful side effect of you having to actually talk to the pugs in your group or having to figure out which tanks/guilds/and group leaders are trustworthy and maybe have to run a blacklist mod to keep track of baddies on your server, but this, if anything, could be a good thing as it'll foster more of the vanilla server feel where you actually get to know good tanks/guilds/group leaders as well as the bad trolls/ninjas and incorporate it all into your experience.
So TL;DR: of the argument is; even assuming what you say will be omnipresent, I couldn't care less about it, and thus, it's a molehill at best, because there are plenty of adequate mechanisms to handle such ninja looters.
It would be interesting if there was a system that would tell everybody in the group/raid, whenever the person who rolled on certain item had already won it in the past so you would know if they are abusing loot trading.
It would be interesting if there was a system that would tell everybody in the group/raid, whenever the person who rolled on certain item had already won it in the past so you would know if they are abusing loot trading.
nah, too much work for blizz...
I see the problem with loot trading, I'm not fond of it either, but honestly, it's gotten a bit overblown. If you're ripped off in a dungeon while leveling that sucks but not that big issue. I know gear is used for way longer back then, but you will outlevel it anyway.
About raids, well, a raid group is something that should stick together, a clan really should bring decent folks along, with whom this shouldn't be a problem.
Am I missing something here?
ToriK For low level dungeons it's piss, yeah - but we're thinking Maraudon onwards in general. People will run dungeons like Maraudon, BRD, Strath, Scholo, LBRS, UBRS not once, but dozens of times in hopes of getting specific item which could be their pre-raid BiS (or even BiS) for a few patches. There are level 40 greens which are better than most level 60 blues for some classes, haha - Vanilla is crazy (i.e. poorly itemized) like that.
The thing is it definitely won't affect any half-serious player who knows it's best to get in a guild and run dungeon groups there. It's more of a concern for casuals and new players lol. Going from a 20% chance to drop and 50-100% chance to win a roll for it to 20% chance to drop and 20% chance to win a roll for it could be devastating for some.
it definitely won't affect any half-serious player who knows it's best to get in a guild and run dungeon groups there. It's more of a concern for casuals and new players
You're right on that, can't argue.
Just an addition, maybe it will motivate those casual and new players to join guilds and play WoW as it was supposed to back then, before community was killed off for good by all the QoL stuff coughraidfindercouhg. So, it may as well be a good thing.
There are much more ways to communicate and find groups to do content with nowadays than there were back in 2005 (BattleNet, Discord, BarrensChat). Regarding the loot trading, I think that's why it's unnecessary to implement it in Classic. I expect there will be a lot of groups forming by people who are playing together often and I guess there will be less ninja-ing when you're actually talking via voice chat and are playing with your group on a regular basis.
So organised groups and voice chat are my arguments. Also like the point others made of how ninjas often get blacklisted, which is very impactful on non-crossrealm servers. And if you get ninja'd, remember #NoChanges is what we wanted. It's part of the bigger picture.
I strongly think that loot trading will be detrimental to the classic feeling. I am not a strict "no changes" guy, but would like the experience to be as matching to back in the day as possible. While I understand all the positive aspects to this change and think back about how frustrating it was back in the day, I really think it was part of the game. I think a loot trading is one of the changes we subconsciously knew where probably coming. In my opinion, there should be a couple of tweaks to it, i.e. only tradeable within 15 minutes; only tradeable inside dungeon. Furthermore, I think it will not really be a noteworthy thing for guilds that raid on a big scale. In five man dungeons however, I think this will have more negative impact than positive and will result in many people not going with people they don't trust.
I agree it will probably end up not being an issue for 99% of people, and likely it will only be an issue for people who run dungeons with random people. So if they were to change the implementation of loot trading at all, also unlikely for Blizzard to do that, I guess perhaps to change it to only be available in raids.