Set Naxxramas gear at the highest end, then add more gear that falls within T1, T2, T3. Use different set bonuses or even new attributes to distinguish the sets. Not only would players be able to look different, but also customize their builds/playstyles through set bonuses on new gear.
But... then it isn't Classic/Vanilla anymore, what you are proposing is Classic+ by definition. I think people may be confused as to why Blizzard are creating Classic WoW. It's not to start again and build from there, if they wanted to do that they would have called it WoW 2 (Which honestly isn't a bad idea, it's just not the purpose of Classic WoW). They have made Classic WoW to be a "Faithful restoration of the original World of Warcraft before any expansions". If you go and add content, change/add features, quality of life set bonuses, then you change the very game they are trying to preserve.
Set Naxxramas gear at the highest end, then add more gear that falls within T1, T2, T3. Use different set bonuses or even new attributes to distinguish the sets. Not only would players be able to look different, but also customize their builds/playstyles through set bonuses on new gear.
But... then it isn't Classic/Vanilla anymore, what you are proposing is Classic+ by definition. I think people may be confused as to why Blizzard are creating Classic WoW. It's not to start again and build from there, if they wanted to do that they would have called it WoW 2 (Which honestly isn't a bad idea, it's just not the purpose of Classic WoW). They have made Classic WoW to be a "Faithful restoration of the original World of Warcraft before any expansions". If you go and add content, change/add features, quality of life set bonuses, then you change the very game they are trying to preserve.
I understand that. I am trying to distill what makes Classic WoW so replayable. I offered some suggestions using horizontal scaling that wouldn't hinder the essence of the game. What do you think of having new raid or dungeon gear that offer new set bonuses. I provided an example of how Nightslayer compares to Bloodfang, and how the set bonuses give players initiative to wear either set. One of the best aspects of Classic WoW was how non-linear upgrades were. You could mix and match and even wear lower raid gear without gimping yourself. The expansions basically used the iLvL system where new gear was basically always an improvement. That vertical gear progression is the opposite of what Classic needs.
RedridgeGnoll I have answered the vertical/horizontal question probably 3 times already, please feel free to go back through my original responses on this.
I don't like the changes to Tier set bonuses as part of Classic, only a Classic+ off-shoot. I think you could do some really cool and interesting stuff with vanilla WoW re-done, but I don't think it forms part of this 'project' and I don't know if it would actually be as successful as a pure recreation of vanilla. That is purely just a hunch/speculation/conjecture on my part based on the bulk of feedback from other enthusiasts.
as long as Blizzard keeps the spirit of Classic WoW aglow. Below is an outline for expanding Classic WoW using horizontal progression.
Naxxramas gear should remain top end. Adding new raids that increase the tier level beyond 3 creates problematic power creep.
I think these two points sum it up nicely, I'm totally fine with changes so long as A. The community has a say in what is or isn't added and B. All changes are made must be in keeping the key design decisions made in wow classic originally. So a new race is fine, so long as they don't somehow make it that that race has an easier time leveling (racial bonus to experience gained? Terrible suggestion, but it's just an example).
How will Classic WoW grow and stay relevant without new content then?
It' a recreation of a 15 year old game, there is no 'staying relevant'. The only growing that Classic WoW will do, is via the community and the player based events and interactions. There entire purpose for Classic is to simply recreate and immortalize the Vanilla WoW time.
I get this line of thinking, but I think taking old school runescape as an example is the best way to play it, give the community the reins as far as what is changed and when, and the core, dedicated player base always gets what they want.
I understand that. I am trying to distill what makes Classic WoW so replayable. I offered some suggestions using horizontal scaling that wouldn't hinder the essence of the game. What do you think of having new raid or dungeon gear that offer new set bonuses. I provided an example of how Nightslayer compares to Bloodfang, and how the set bonuses give players initiate to wear either set. One of the best aspects of Classic WoW was how non-linear upgrades were. You could mix and match and even wear lower raid gear without gimping yourself. The expansions basically used the iLvL system where new gear was basically always an improvement. That vertical gear progression is the opposite of what Classic needs.
I get what you're trying to do, and I agree with you to a certain extent. Vanilla WoW isn't some magical mistake. The core game philosophies that made vanilla great, can be replicated to continue making great content. Vanilla was a recipe. Additionally, I selfishly want horizontal content. There are two primary concerns I see with this. The upfront investment from Blizzard and the saturation of their market.
1) From a business standpoint, it doesn't make fiscal sense. The community is also crying for BC and WotLK, which can be seen by their prevalence in the private server community. Why did they choose to make vanilla first? Because it likely has the largest following and because it was the first rendition of the game. It only makes sense to continue with the Classic project in BC and WotLK. I personally liked BC and despised WotLK, but a lot of players would disagree with me. This is the point. Each of these games will appeal to a gigantic portion of players. Your version of the original game which will result in some frakenproject that may or may not succeed, but these other recreations are guaranteed successes. Recreating BC and WotLK is pretty simple... Just follow the script. Very minimal development investment, with a huge fan appeal and gigantic profit margins. It just doesn't make fiscal sense to invest in a game that is 15 years old and over saturate your own market while creating a project that may or may not succeed. Why not invest that development into a new MMO that will definitely stimulate more interest in the general community and earn them more of a return?
2) Over saturation. At what point does creating additional versions of the game devalue the brand as a whole. Running Classic in conjunction with retail on a shared sub makes smart business sense. You have two drastically different audiences, with some opportunity for cross over and cross pollination. You stagger your release for each project so that each of them support the development for one another both financially and from a player interest perspective. Content drought in Retail? Drop Burning Crusade Classic. Burning Crusade Classic slowly losing subs? Drop new retail content and so on and so forth. Additional content on one sub will add value to the subscribers. At what point is there too much WoW and at what point do you have too many projects running simultaneously? This question is rhetorical, neither us, nor Blizzard knows the answer empirically and thus there is great risk associated with this pursuit.
Example:
Classic WoW. Classic + with active dev support creating new content. BC Classic. WotLK Classic. Retail running additional content and adding new Xpacs every few years... At a certain point the audience simply cant keep up and stops caring about your product entirely. At a certain point the community becomes too segregated into their individual bubbles and the opportunities for cross pollination are reduced. Each individual group wants their own specialty content and are less interested in the brand as a whole. Your company is also weaker when you thin yourselves out. There are only so many Mark Kern's. With each additional product the company tasks their employees with, they spread their subject-matter-experts out across each project and thin the individual attention and development power that each product will receive.
Could they make some horizontal content? Probably. Will we see it? Only if the market demands it and Blizzards analytics determine it is a safe bet. Will we see boat battles and housing come to Classic? No. Definitely no. These are contentious changes that would cause controversy. They are also high risk investments that dont make fiscal sense. Why gamble at success when you can just capture guaranteed success with a demonstrated formula? They will stick with the recipe if they make horizontal content, they wont make any attempts to reinvent the wheel.
Over saturation. At what point does creating additional versions of the game devalue the brand as a whole. Running Classic in conjunction with retail on a shared sub makes smart business sense. You have two drastically different audiences, with some opportunity for cross over and cross pollination. You stagger your release for each project so that each of them support the development for one another both financially and from a player interest perspective. Content drought in Retail? Drop Burning Crusade Classic. Burning Crusade Classic slowly losing subs? Drop new retail content and so on and so forth. Additional content on one sub will add value to the subscribers. At what point is there too much WoW and at what point do you have too many projects running simultaneously? This question is rhetorical, neither us, nor Blizzard knows the answer empirically and thus there is great risk associated with this pursuit.
This is a great line of thinking. Here's a crazy idea that is strictly Classic+ and not truly WoW Classic, but may be a decent compromise. What if you released Burning Crusade/Wrath of the Lich King content but kept the level cap at 60 and simply made their gear different, like what RedridgeGnoll was saying above? That way people can run the "new" content, you avoid power creep, and people that want to experience those zones get a chance to do so, in a Blizzard official environment.
Over saturation, like making the other expansions into their own servers, could be cannibalistic to the fanbase that wants to see classic in the first place, so I wouldn't want to go that route.
This is a great line of thinking. Here's a crazy idea that is strictly Classic+ and not truly WoW Classic, but may be a decent compromise. What if you released Burning Crusade/Wrath of the Lich King content but kept the level cap at 60 and simply made their gear different, like what @RedridgeGnoll was saying above?
You would need to be certain that combining BC and WotlK in a 60 capped environment would stimulate more interest than running those expansions on their own exclusively. Will more people be interested in re-experiencing something they are familiar with, in the form of revisiting those previous expansions as they were, or will more people be interested in them all being amalgamated into one gigantic franken project? Will that franken project not only appeal to the same size of an audience, but actually an INCREASED audience to justify the additional costs of development to create such a product?
I don't have the answer, but my bet is that this fraken project would appeal to less people than running those three games independently. If I had to bet, I would estimate a very VERY small portion of people invested in those individual expansions, would be interested in seeing them all mashed together. The people who love BC but hated WotLK (me) would have no interest in it. The people who only want to play Classic vanilla, would have no interest. The people who never got to play any of these products and want to experience and authentic recreation, would have no use for such a project. At what point do we simply advocate that we want to see a new MMO all together?
edit: I'll be honest. I'm less excited for Classic (and IM DAMN EXCITED) than I am in seeing the impact and outcome of its success. I would love to see developers create new games that we havent explored based on oldschool gaming philosophies.
What if you released Burning Crusade/Wrath of the Lich King content but kept the level cap at 60 and simply made their gear different, like what @RedridgeGnoll was saying above?
Could you imagine dinging 60 and trying to get dungeon groups together to get gear to go into one of 24 raids available at level 60? Haha. That would not work unfortunately, it would be a clusterfuck trying to get groups/guilds together to get your Tier 1, or 7, or 2.5, or 9 - whatever suited your build best. Then you would probably need LFR and cross realm to be able to make it work, and we don't want to go down that path in this thread!
What if you released Burning Crusade/Wrath of the Lich King content but kept the level cap at 60 and simply made their gear different, like what @RedridgeGnoll was saying above?
Could you imagine dinging 60 and trying to get dungeon groups together to get gear to go into one of 24 raids available at level 60? Haha. That would not work unfortunately, it would be a clusterfuck trying to get groups/guilds together to get your Tier 1, or 7, or 2.5, or 9 - whatever suited your build best. Then you would probably need LFR and cross realm to be able to make it work, and we don't want to go down that path in this thread!
I didnt say that. Quoted the wrong person accidentally :lol: . Agreed though. Their version of the game sounds like a complete clusterfuck. I cant imagine trying to pitch this idea in a room of game developers.
I didnt say that. Quoted the wrong person accidentally :lol:
Sorry dude, quote button wigged out on me! Fixed via edit*
What if you released Burning Crusade/Wrath of the Lich King content but kept the level cap at 60 and simply made their gear different, like what @RedridgeGnoll was saying above?
Could you imagine dinging 60 and trying to get dungeon groups together to get gear to go into one of 24 raids available at level 60? Haha. That would not work unfortunately, it would be a clusterfuck trying to get groups/guilds together to get your Tier 1, or 7, or 2.5, or 9 - whatever suited your build best. Then you would probably need LFR and cross realm to be able to make it work, and we don't want to go down that path in this thread!
That's a valid point. What if there were seasons? You can only get vanilla raids in one season, BC in another, WOTLK in another, and so on, kind of how overwatch does timed events. As an addendum, the expansion zones would have to be scaled down so that the end zones would be 60, starter zones would be 40? 50? I don't know. It would definitely be a frankenstein, but maybe a fun frankenstein?
snickerwicket Maybe blizzard can do crazy fun servers with seasons at some point, for a newer market to attract. It is certainly not something to consider for Classic though. They could easily make some battle royale style BG (like a controlled gurubashi arena) to appeal to that huge market too. The possibilities are endless to think about, but I doubt any will come to fruition.
The possibilities are endless to think about, but I doubt any will come to fruition.
RISK VS REWARD. Selexin is correct. Will we get our money back? A maybe is not good enough. They didn't refuse remaking Vanilla because they hated Vanilla players. They aren't recreating Classic because they love their fans. They are a company. Companies make money. Vanilla was a huge risk until someone did it and it worked (Nostalrius). Everyone has an idea but not many people have a demonstrated and working prototype. The choice to recreate Classic became clear when Nostalrius offered a functional prototype with demonstrated success. That same success can easily be achieved by recreating BC and WotLK. This franken project is a gigantic gamble. A gamble that requires a TON of investment. Investment and development power that could be used elsewhere for a greater return on investment; like creating a new mmo.
Do you think Blizzard dev's were pumped to make a Diablo mobile game? No. Analytics and market research determined that was a safe bet. So it will be made. Regardless of the initial backlash, that game will have a huge return on investment. This is how large companies operate.
Those concepts of including areas like Grim Batol, Dragon Isles would be cool. New zones, dungeons, raids that are added should be connected and inside the Old World. I do not think welfare epics should be added as a catch up mechanic however. Having high end gear attainable through an endgame quest chain should be welcomed. Set Naxxramas gear at the highest end, then add more gear that falls within T1, T2, T3. Use different set bonuses or even new attributes to distinguish the sets. Not only would players be able to look different, but also customize their builds/playstyles through set bonuses on new gear.
I'm not sure where the problem here lies, or why people seem to misconstrue this so very often. I'm not suggesting that you have entire sets that negate any of the content prior - purely supplemental gear that assists players in getting to AQ/Naxx, hence pegging it at BWL/AQ level. Vanilla had catch up content much the same all through out. Ony was welfare gear to the most part, ZG provided gear that directly contested MC and to a degree BWL gear, Tier 0.5 contested MC/BWL gear, Naxx implemented quest lines with equipment that also brought that base level power up as well. My suggestions was along the lines of a couple of piece of equipment similar in power to BWL such that you would still need to do that content to progress.
I also personally don't know why you would want to set Naxx as the top end with any level of horizontal progression. The issue is that you still need to incentivise players to do the content in the first place. If you're adding some pseudo content between Naxx and AQ, people just skip it and go straight to Naxx. Unless it's unfathomabley easy in which case, people just spam the crap out of this new content and Naxx becomes a cake walk. If you're adding new raid content, it needs to be in direct competition, or it needs to be a slight increase in power, with the raid being a lot harder. risk/reward.
I don't think adding new set bonuses is a fix all. I understand where you're headed with it and why - but I think modifiying things like that really starts to affect the whole meta and changes around how people talent, etc. Gearing then becomes extremely strange if you're suddenly shoving non-viable specs into the light.
Every change needs to be looked at objectively with reasoning for implementation.