I'll admit I am concerned for this Classic+ or whatever people are throwing about. Let's talk about it when Classic is 3+ years old.
This.
My only problem with this is that 3+ years seems really, really late to start DEVELOPING anything.
Vanilla lasted from 2004-2006 and the timeline was still too short. The cadence of releasing each raid, especially toward the end, wasn't very well thought out. This is why so few people even got passed a single wing in Naxx.
I think at the two year mark, it makes sense to start exploring the idea of extra content. But there are many things, quite honestly, that I don't trust Blizzard with. They know full well that there are many people who are very interested in minimal changes to Classic. That means keeping the game as it was. The current beta seems to be an indication of a true recreation and I applaud them for it. However Blizzard isn't very good at balance adjustments, new "features" and all that jazz because clearly time has not been kind to them in that regard.
Blizzard just needs to realize that a good MMO(RPG) doesn't need expansions. At least not the kind that have been rolled out for WoW.
Yup. They need to go back to the drawing board and rethink their approach. Clearly there is a market for Classic. Otherwise they wouldn't be doing what they are doing now.
And don't get me wrong, I feel Classic even being out in a few months is amazing. I am beyond excited. But I am nervous about what is coming down the pipe. We (the Classic player base) need to be holding them accountable.
Horizontal expansions would be best IMO. starting seperate servers with TBC etc will split up the playerbase too much but expanding on the classic world with roadmap-type content will keep people involved while allowing for progression
I think the problem with MMOs in general is that there really has to be a large player base to be enjoyable and successful. The game isn't the same if its empty and there is nobody around to play with. And that makes things difficult when people start to imagine what happens in a few years. The problem is we can't have a separate classic server and a separate classic+ server and a new TBC server and a new wrath server - too many different server types and the player base starts getting divided down to nothing.
I definitely do want to see the game allowed to sit in full classic mode for at least 2-3 years before blizzard moves on. I would like at least 3-4 months between content release phases.
Looking a few years down the road though, I do really like the Oldschool Runescape approach. I would like to see a Classic+ model once we get there where we get new Classic content developed in the Classic environment - same old graphics, same old gameplay, same core game philosophy wrapped around fleshing out some of the empty zones on the map. Whatever the new 'Classic+' content would be, it would need to play and feel like the original stuff we all came back for.
It's easy to identify obvious things about retail that diverged from the classic gameplay - flying mounts, LFG, raid finder, and things like this have been beaten to death. And I think they're all part of what ruined the game for myself over time.
Something else that puts me off recent expansions was the forced storytelling. The current game is all about scripted material combined with phased zones and cut scenes that have to be done in a specific order, and makes the game feel like a glorified single-player campaign.
I'm sure we all have fond memories of things we did back in vanilla that had nothing to do with lore or storytelling. The game didn't make us do anything, and didn't even really provide much of a story. Yes, there was lore, but it wasn't shoved in our faces. The game was kind of a big sandbox with vague targets way off in the distance but it was up to us to figure out how we were going to get there. That added a lot to the adventure of the game. The game didn't present us with some overly scripted series of cutscenes and orchestrated mechanics, it just gave us a bunch of dumb boss fights and let us fill in the blanks ourselves. I don't even remember any of vanilla's storylines, but I do have countless memories of things like 4-manning my way through DM after somebody dropped at 2AM that we couldn't replace, of corpse hopping my way through zones to meet groups of friends in far away lands, of gathering up groups of people to go tackle quests that were too high level for any of us to do by ourselves... The game forced us to interact with each other and make our own stories as we struggled our way through sometimes obnoxious situations.
Years from now once Classic starts getting stale I would like to see Classic+ content that sticks to all the core values. Content that doesn't guide us through the game, but simply presents a new challenge and makes us figure it out on our own. Makes people go out and find people to help them make their way through the world just like the original Classic content does.
There are Naga buildings on dev island? TIL
photo snip
Oh my GOD that is amazing! Thank you so much for sharing :)
Something else that puts me off recent expansions was the forced storytelling. The current game is all about scripted material combined with phased zones and cut scenes that have to be done in a specific order, and makes the game feel like a glorified single-player campaign.
Oh god.
Gating Draenor behind the "go through the Dark Portal, rescue Thrall, and build your garrison" questline...
Gating the Broken Isles behind the class hall bullshit and artifact weapon scenarios...
Screw all of that. What ever happened to just walking into a zone and talking to the first NPC who needed some bear asses collected?
There are Naga buildings on dev island? TIL
There are like four cave entrances made out of highborne pillars covered by huge shells, all leading to different labyrinths, and a huge (and I mean HUGE) hollowed out kraken with a whole AQ-ish temple build both on top and inside, with stairs all over the place. Sadly all these remain untextured. I took the liberty of screenshotting the place.
Here's one of the cave entraces, they're pretty big:
Here's the concept art for the kraken-temple:
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Here's the thing in its untextured flesh, it's way too big so vanilla's view distance is not enough to frame the whole thing in a single pic:
And here's the man, the legend himself for scale:
Man I missed this post like a month ago - I'm surprised I've never seen these before. I used to spend a lot of time reading about places like GM island, an early copy of the outlands hidden inside the deadmines... But I've never seen that kraken building before. Where exactly is that? Is that at all accessible from the original game without standing up a private server and giving yourself GM powers to teleport?
If we want a better WoW, we shouldnt risk losing what we have (again)
No need to fear it that much. The main issue with continued dev (like what happened with current retail wow) is that development is done in a black hole, decisions are made without consulting the audiance (the players), and the inability to remove things.
If you go a route similar to OSRS where a vast majority (like 75%+ not a simple majority) must approve a potential change before development even begins, you are far less likely to run into these issues. Also, even if the vast majority approves a change, having the ability to admit a feature is bad or over powered is key, revert the changes, even as late as 1 year later.
Regardless, there should always be classic unmodified IMO. I think the option to one way transfer your character (never to come back, and not fork) to a new server to follow the TBC progression or to follow the continued classic progression should be an option. Collapse low pop servers into medium pop servers to maintain decent populations if nessecary.
I dont actually think that #nochanges at all is a good way to go. It is 2019 outside at a lot of new better technologies have been developed, not even saying about some approaches. Im not talking about new content, graphics and so on, but a lof o unconvinient stuff was in vanilla wow due to no or less experience. Classic wow have to be classic but as @thoriumwindy said we should not be afraid of changes. Classic is good but 2 years and you will get bored, imo.
better tech doesn't mean anything.
we have better tech now then they had in 2004.
and yet retail is a cesspit.
despite all that inconvenient stuff, vanilla and burning crusade remain to this day my two favorite times this game has ever had.
followed by legion, wrath, mists, cata, and lastly warlords/BFA.
The main issue with continued dev (like what happened with current retail wow) is that development is done in a black hole, decisions are made without consulting the audiance (the players), and the inability to remove things.
On the contrary, one of the biggest problems with modern WoW is that TOO MUCH has been removed... like the entire Old World!
I'll admit I am concerned for this Classic+ or whatever people are throwing about. Let's talk about it when Classic is 3+ years old.
Agreed. I'm cautiously optimistic about Classic+ as a hypothetical when compared with the idea of simply releasing TBC servers and beyond, but it's too early to get into specifics.
Classic should stay classic for many years imo. After all, it's why people are coming back. However, there's also a part of me that would just love a sort of do-over of the story and expansions for WoW. There's a lot I've never loved in terms of story alone, and it would be kinda cool imo to see another storyline go on, perhaps with the gameplay and essence of what made classic great.
I just want WoW 2. I'm a simple guy.
This is why I'd rather see Classic+ than just going through the expansions again. There's a ton of unreleased content that was clearly planned for Vanilla which we never saw, either at all or until later expansions.
If we take a game that I love (Classic) and add content that remains true to the core game philosophies of Classic, I have a higher chance of liking the final product
Exactly. And this ties into what "we" expected back then from WoW, back in 04/05 there were groups of people (me included) that were adamant that the developers would simply add new content every month or so, subsidised by the subscription money.
WoW would just be a constantly updated game over time without the concept of expansions since the subscription concept would nullify the need for expansion cash-flow.
We totally expected that the unclickable 'mistery zones' in the world map would be added at some point, same with more battlegrounds and any other content (i.e. the Uldum dungeon/raid; the Azshara battleground, the Caverns of time). Obviously it did go that way with expansions, but we honestly just thought that it would be a single continuous game, World of Warcraft would always be World of Warcraft, not WoW: The Burning Crusade, WoW: Wrath of the Lich King, and so on, as 'separate entities' that you had to purchase on top of the sub.
I'd love to see (pending the success or lack-thereof of Classic) a re-imagining of Vanilla, keeping the gameplay absolutely untouched (including the non optimal specs) and just adding zones and dungeons (Karazhan, Uldum, etc) as a 'what-if' scenario.
Obviously I'm not holding my breath on this, time will tell. but I think it would be a dull project to just repeat ad nauseum everything that has already happened.
Nowhere to be exact. it's in one of two "designer maps" I've found. The other one is pretty barren with some common models scattered all around and terrain tests. This one also has that, but it houses these enormous structures. I'm not sure if they are in any specific continent like GM Island is, I forgot to check (I've since deleted the client) but if they are I haven't seen anyone make their way there other than with commands so far.
How did you find those places? I'm assuming you're running your own repack private server?