I don't think that the system should be changed to where its based on cumulative honor earned. The issue with the system is that you are forced to premade battlegrounds to reach high honor ranks. I am suggesting that there are two honor ranking systems. One for World PvP and one for Battlegrounds. If you aren't doing premade battlegrounds 15 hours a day then you are pretty much stuck at Rank 10/11. That becomes really boring. Players should be able to reach rank 14 doing World PvP. It is better to give players more options. World PvP rewards basically nothing once BGs are released, because you are competing against players spamming crossrealm battlegrounds. It is one of the biggest issues with the game.
I don't fully disagree with your dual system idea but is it fair to reward someone with R 13/14 if they farmed level 50's to get it versus someone who spent most of their waking hours stacking bodies against other level 60's. I loooooove world PvP but I don't think that alone should warrant the same result as a combined effort (world and BG PvP). I feel that if someone is completely serious about the grind to R13/14 then it becomes imperative to go to a low population server. Preferably one where you are the outnumbered faction. Since you are competing against your server peers, this will give you the most bang for your buck in world PvP and more likely that you will be grouping with the small community of other BG-grinders for that pool of honor and get you to a desired rank much faster. After that, swap servers to live the high-population lifestyle. That's my plan anyway.
The Rank 14 grind in Classic will involve Premade groups winning 5 minute games in crossrealm battlegrounds. It renders World PvP obsolete. Crossrealm battlegrounds will also lead to fewer players roaming contested zones most likely. Part of what differentiates Classic from Retail is the open world aspect. Having two systems allows players who prefer to do battlegrounds to achieve Rank 14, while still making World PvP a valid playstyle. I don't see the downside. The world wouldn't be as crowded with players camping flightmasters or greifing level 50s, because a lot of level 60s would be grinding battlegrounds for ranking as well.
I would imagine what you brought up is available in retail and that's a good place for it to stay.
Classic WoW Honor Ranking will be dominated by premade groups sitting in Capital Cities 15 hours a day farming pugs in crossrealm battlegrounds.
It will make World PvP honor ranking pointless. Why is that a good thing? Crossrealm battlegrounds didn't even exist for most of Vanilla, yet we are getting them in Classic when BGs launch. How does nobody see how potentially damaging this will be for the game. That is what Retail is. Spam battleground queues 24/7. That is not how it was in Classic.
Whole vanilla is about: time invested>>>skill. So just leave it as it is.
I will patiently wait for tbc :smile:
I plan on grinding as much as my time allows me. Rank 14 is a pipe dream, but a fun dream. As a teacher, the only way I can possibly get it is in the summer time. However, as fun as the dream is, I'm 100% okay with it being just that. A dream.
With that being said, I do wish it were set up a little differently. I don't think it should be easier to obtain, per se, but just healthier. Adding World PvP into the mix would be super helpful, but they need to get rid of DHK's to make it work. I personally believe DHK's are more detrimental to World PvP than the Rank 14 grind is, imo.
I am not a fan of cross-realm battlegrounds; they eliminate meaningful rivalry between factions on a server. World PvP will always be my favorite kind of PvP, but I understand why Blizzard originally introduced battlegrounds. There are some factors that could make World PvP unenjoyable (population imbalance, lack of immediacy), and battlegrounds gave players a way to have a guaranteed fair-ish fight without having to go searching for it, potentially for hours.
Changes in Classic scare me because if one thing is changed, why can't other things be changed, you know? And I worry that any change would snowball into enough changes for Classic to no longer be what we wanted. I wish that World PvP had been equally incentivized as battlegrounds in the original game, but it wasn't. Luckily, Alterac Valley was introduced, and it became my favorite battleground of any battleground I experienced (Warsong Gulch, Arathi Basin, Eye of the Storm, Battle for Gilneas?, Strand of the Ancients, Twin Peaks, Isle of Conquest). I remember in Wrath of the Lich King, there was the battle for Winter's Grasp, but I didn't particularly find that more exciting than Alterac Valley. So if you love World PvP, I hope to see you in Alterac Valley.
Whole vanilla is about: time invested>>>skill. So just leave it as it is.
I will patiently wait for tbc :smile:
And this notion, which is 100% accurate, is what created the massive gap between the top players and the bottom players in Vanilla... Because the top players played more so they were typically more familiar with the game and more knowledgeable AND had an insane amount of gear. Imagine being in raid gear, understanding the strong synergies in your talent tree and using a build that was theorycrafted, using addons and keybinds and fighting against people with half of your health who were keyboard turning and clicking ALL of their abilities - this was vanilla. There was a massive disparity between the top and bottom of the playerbase and I think this made the game strong because you could be strong (as @cletus eluded to above, you cant be strong when everyone is strong). The game rewarded effort. A combination of time (with an emphasis on time) but with an element of self-development and know-how. If you put effort into vanilla, you could be awesome but without effort, you were going to suck. No amount of inherent skill could carry you at a certain gear threshold. Vanilla was not balanced, vanilla was not forgiving and inclusive; vanilla was a story of the haves and the have-nots. You were either lounging at the top as an apex predator or you were being hunted. This added to the games social dynamic and ingame social hierarchy while setting achievable parameters for greatness that incentivized spending time ingame... In an MMO... Gosh, who'da thunk it??? Its almost like they wanted people to log in!
Dont get me wrong I was pumped to PvP in BC in a truly competitive environment in the form of arenas and I loved that era of the game, but this is a different era and those changes in BC came at a cost. Unpopular opinion from some who played a SHITload of Vanilla and BC and peaked as a player in BC: BC may have been the most casual version of the game we have ever seen. Yes. More casual than retail. As a warrior I was able to craft my BiS PvP weapon in the form of stomherlad, not contested until LATE into BC. I was able to buy badge reward fist weapons from a vendor after completing heroic dungeons that provided MORE DPS than the legendary swords off of Illidan. My season 3 gear, was better for PvE until I got into Sunwell. Resilience... Oh resilience... The game tried to build a competitive atmosphere and sacrificed a lot of the MMO vibe. I had friends who would casually log into alts and complete their 10 arenas per week while sporting (arguably) the best gear in the game. It was the equivalent of war tables and took about as much time cumulatively in a week, as managing war tables did or less.
As always, you could nitpick these individual issues with BC and offer a solution to some of the inherent problems of BC, but this will always be a balance. You can not create the perfect game, so you balance attributes of your game to the best of your ability while adhering to your core game philosophies. When you step outside of those philosophies and begin to change major aspects of the game, you sacrifice the integrity of the game and the authenticity of your project.
Hey Redridge, didnt you say you part of development or something for vanilla at one point?
What is the downside of having 2 honor systems? One for World PvP and one for Battlegrounds.
What is the downside of having 2 honor systems? One for World PvP and one for Battlegrounds.
Its dumb.
Man, do you post about anything other than changing the Honor system in WoW to reward casuals who can't put up with the grind in this game? Your last 4 threads had nothing but "let's add more incentive for people out in the world" but in reality the recurrent theme of what you're asking is for easier ways to grind R10/R14 gear.
There enough incentives for World-PvP as is, there's no need to pursue any discussion on your proposed Ashran-like changes. I have over 300 people in my guild who are interested in World-PvP and I've never once heard them say they need an incentive to do large scale World-PvP fights. The incentives are already there, especially for P2 of content - the only people crying for changes to the PvP system are the people who want the gear but don't want to/can't work for it.
Man, do you post about anything other than changing the Honor system in WoW to reward casuals who can't put up with the grind in this game? Your last 4 threads had nothing but "let's add more incentive for people out in the world" but in reality the recurrent theme of what you're asking is for easier ways to grind R10/R14 gear.
There enough incentives for World-PvP as is, there's no need to pursue any discussion on your proposed Ashran-like changes. I have over 300 people in my guild who are interested in World-PvP and I've never once heard them say they need an incentive to do large scale World-PvP fights. The incentives are already there, especially for P2 of content - the only people crying for changes to the PvP system are the people who want the gear but don't want to/can't work for it.
It's like trying to explain the concept of fun to an alien without a personality.
How do you all feel about changing the Ranking System to static honor values that are not based on the performance of other members of your faction? This way anyone could eventually achieve Rank 14 if they grinded enough. Rank 14 would require a certain maximum amount of honor earned, and once it was reached, a player would earn the ranking.
No. There are some things that most people should never be able to achieve. Rank 14 should be borderline impossible for anybody to get, and only a small handful of people should ever achieve it. I will never reach Rank 14 on PvP. Most people should never get there. Some things in this game need to be just about impossible to do. Achieving Rank 14 in classic requires an obsessive and unhealthy amount of grinding, and that's awesome. It makes the achievements of those that do a lot more special and adds flavor to the game.
Handing out 'you tried' style participation trophies waters down the game. I'm not interested in seeing Ironforge full of Grand Marshalls.
Man, do you post about anything other than changing the Honor system in WoW to reward casuals who can't put up with the grind in this game? Your last 4 threads had nothing but "let's add more incentive for people out in the world" but in reality the recurrent theme of what you're asking is for easier ways to grind R10/R14 gear.
There enough incentives for World-PvP as is, there's no need to pursue any discussion on your proposed Ashran-like changes. I have over 300 people in my guild who are interested in World-PvP and I've never once heard them say they need an incentive to do large scale World-PvP fights. The incentives are already there, especially for P2 of content - the only people crying for changes to the PvP system are the people who want the gear but don't want to/can't work for it.
The Battleground system makes World PvP honor grinding worthless? Are you not aware of this? Once players stop getting reward for doing World PvP it happens less and less. When Phase 3 happens World PvP honor grinding is irrelevant. Classic WoW is about rewarding players for being in the open world. Phase 3 will involves Premade groups stomping randoms in crossrealm battlegrounds all day. They won't even bother to leave the Capital Cities, for fear they might miss a battleground queue pop. Do you understand that once many players reach rank 10 or 11 their progression ends unless they are in some premade clique. It is bad design.
I am suggesting adding a second honor system. One that is only for World PvP. What are the downsides? Nobody has answered this.
How do you all feel about changing the Ranking System to static honor values that are not based on the performance of other members of your faction? This way anyone could eventually achieve Rank 14 if they grinded enough. Rank 14 would require a certain maximum amount of honor earned, and once it was reached, a player would earn the ranking.
No. There are some things that most people should never be able to achieve. Rank 14 should be borderline impossible for anybody to get, and only a small handful of people should ever achieve it. I will never reach Rank 14 on PvP. Most people should never get there. Some things in this game need to be just about impossible to do. Achieving Rank 14 in classic requires an obsessive and unhealthy amount of grinding, and that's awesome. It makes the achievements of those that do a lot more special and adds flavor to the game.
Handing out 'you tried' style participation trophies waters down the game. I'm not interested in seeing Ironforge full of Grand Marshalls.
First of all, having Rank 14 be attainable through maximum honor earned doesn't make it casual. The maximum honor requried could be so high that you might have to grind for hours every day for a year or something. It is an alternative of forcing players to grind for 15 hours a day for several months. The distrubtion of players that acheived Rank 14 would effectively be the same. Regardless, that is not the real issue that is being discussed. The concern is how Battlegrounds invalidate World PvP. That is a glaring issue with Classic WoW, especially considering we will be getting Crossrealm Battlegrounds, which were not in Vanilla until the very end. Nonstop battleground queueing against randoms from other servers is exactly what Retail is. Why do we want Classic to be the same?
What is the downside of having 2 honor systems? One for World PvP and one for Battlegrounds.
Its dumb.
How is it dumb? The current system in Classic makes honor gains from World PvP insignificant. In phase 2 World PvP is all that matters, then suddenly its a futile way to rank up. How is that now dumb?
First of all, having Rank 14 be attainable through maximum honor earned doesn't make it casual. The maximum honor requried could be so high that you might have to grind for hours every day for a year or something. It is an alternative of forcing players to grind for 15 hours a day for several months. The distrubtion of players that acheived Rank 14 would effectively be the same.
> Current system is standings based and only allows one person to reach Rank 14 at a time
> New system with a static honor point number for Rank 14
> This will somehow not make it so everybody can grind to rank 14
The concern is how Battlegrounds invalidate World PvP
Nothing is stopping you from going outside and doing PvP. Just go outside and do PvP. Not sure if you're aware but contested territory already exists.