I have a dream
Post of the month? :biggrin:
So what do you expect the overall population for the game to launch with? From your server count, youre estimating 20-25 servers to launch? Lets assume the game launches with 2 million players. Remember that this is an inclusive sub and there will be a lot of tourists, this number will probably be WAY higher. Lets then assume that each layer is around 3k players, as was mentioned as a preliminary estimate by Blizz. Lets go on a stretch and assume they cap layering to 5 layers per server (I REALLY hope they dont go this far, but lets take a look for affect).
2 million players divided into groups of 15,000 per server at 5 layers per server is approx 133 servers. This is assuming that they are running with as many as 5 layers per server at their estimate of 3k players per layer. Also realize that there will be a TON of tourists on launch so the player count will likely be much higher. By my estimate, launching with 133 servers is a very low estimate unless they are willing to surpass 5 layers, which could have drastic implications on the impact of layering AND the collapsing phase of layers.
Fair point. I didn't stop to take math in to account. Take my low server guess and add zeros behind them and the same logic still applies.
I'm just trying to say that creating a (possibly) lasting system with negative repercussions for a temporary problem, seems wrong.
Looks like all of the big content creators are finally starting to realize that layering might be bad news?!?!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1oOIXi_59M
TLDW; Tips insinuates that he likely wouldnt have gone with layering but that is what Blizz will be going with. He doesn't really add any meaningful discussion to the topic and says that any option Blizz would have went with would be terrible. While he is not wrong, that isn't really the point. The goal was always to choose the BEST decision and maintain a healthy amount of optimism for the project. If we arent aiming to choose the BEST solution, why even try to modify launch day? Just dont implement anything and start a dumster fire.
Video shows STV arena chest being abused with layer hopping and players avoiding ganks by jumping layers.
Who could have POSSIBLY guessed that layering would be abused or manipulated...???? Gosh! Its like you would have needed a crystal ball or have deduced the probable outcomes with critical thinking /s
:lol:
Temporary sharding confined to zones from level 1-10 would have been active for the first 2 hours of your play experience. The shittiest option, but also the option that impacted your gameplay for the shortest period of time. You wont be making meaningful relationships with people who you are racing against for mob tags anyhow.
Layers in the form of their own servers that were merged at a later date would have been truly persistent and players would not have been able to manipulate layer hops. They would have TRULY been on a server full of people, experiencing the actual game and then would have been merged at a later date.
Dynamic respawns would have kept 1 cohesive world. WHY in the world wouldn't we consider this option? Because private servers did it poorly? They do A LOT of things poorly! A proper version of dynamic respawns implemented by professionals would have been a lot smoother than what we have become accustomed to on private.
Bare minimum, dont let players switch layers outside of rested areas. For the love of god. This advice has been echoed since the dawn of layerings announcement and I really hope the final rendition of layering will at least include this. It will still be abused, but at least the abuse can be contained to some extent...
How are people surprised with the outcome of layering in its current state...? It honestly blows my mind. The issue with a lot of these nochanges guys is that they are incapable of picking their battles. They took a blanket stance on issues and stifled productive conversations with walls of NO. Do you think developers are interested in their feedback? No. We have now surpassed the point where we have a say in the development of the game or the outcome of some MAJOR implementations. I cant say that I blame Blizz, they had to do something and this is the solution they chose. I can say that I am disappointed with the lack of foresight that these content creators had. I really hope Blizz has a creative way to negate some of the impact that layering will have. We have limited details thus far, but as more and more information surfaces, layering keeps looking worse and worse. 62 days remaining... I'm holding out to see realm pop caps! Please be low... Please be low... Max 2 layers... please please please hahahahaha! This can still turn out good! Not much time left though.
The first thing I noticed from the layering was that Monkeynews was farming a spawn point of ore in his stream. He had just logged out and logged back in and the ore was back.
I guess that had something to do with Layering. And from that moment on I was against the system. But let's see how it develops, until release there are still a few days.
The first thing I noticed from the layering was that Monkeynews was farming a spawn point of ore in his stream. He had just logged out and logged back in and the ore was back.
I guess that had something to do with Layering. And from that moment on I was against the system. But let's see how it develops, until release there are still a few days.
As soon as I heard it was one gigantic shard, I knew they had just rebranded sharding. When the dev interview during the announcement confirmed that players would be able to hop layers with group invites, I immediately knew it would be a poor design choice. The devious part of me immediately started to search for ways to abuse the system and within a few minutes I had already considered most of what we are seeing now. It doesnt take a very creative individual to see the major vulnerabilities this sort of system has.
Not much time left though.
Still got two months boys, it's all good! Looks like changes are being made (things that I had predicted/hoped they would implement in the other layering topic).
Here in this layering thread I proposed some solutions to prevent obvious exploits, hopefully this is the beginning of a big change to layering to make it much more appropriate to manage high population F R E S H classic WoW.
Also, you are making assumptions that they aren't intending to put restrictions on movement in switching layers. Will there be an internal cooldown to changing layers?
I think one of the easiest ways to stop people abusing the system, like you are intending to do, is to prevent switching layers during combat, and even for X time after leaving combat to prevent abuse during PvP/PvE encounters to escape/re-enter fights. The other thing is maybe resource nodes should have an ID that is the same across all layers, if you pick a herb on layer 1 with ID#102938, you cannot loot ID#102938 for minimum 5 minutes (or whatever is appropriate) to stop you switching layers to farm resources/chests/objects.
Not much time left though.
Still got two months boys, it's all good! Looks like changes are being made (things that I had predicted/hoped they would implement in the other layering topic).
Selexin actually had some of the most grave viewpoints on layering initially. His actual prediction was...
I am happy to concede that layer hopping will be instant, easy, abusable and rampantly destroying the vanilla feel (which is a shame). So much of the layering argument has been conjecture and assumptions, so with sources we can actually accept things and move forward.
I had to talk Selexin down a bit after he had made these posts. Initially he had NO concerns about layering and even thought it was a valuable implementation. After taking the time to actually read the content that Blizz had put out he switched 180 and had the most bleak opinion of layering that I seen on this forum. Lets not rewrite history Selexin... Lets also not get too confident because Tipsout made a most that Blizz will be changing things. Realize that in its current state, players in the beta are on servers with hundreds of people, yet players are experiencing layers with 1-3 players in Orgrimmar. The layering issues are not confined to abuse. There are MANY MANY layers to this conversation... Hahaha.
Hi Stfuppercut, yes you did paint an incredibly bleak picture of layering, and the concern that if it didn't change it would be easy abused and rampantly destroying the vanilla feel (which would still be a shame).
Now that we can see that they are actively make changes and adjustments to layering to make it more functional and less exploitable, we don't have to run with the bleak picture you had nurtured.
Can you be optimistic about this change? Or is it all doom and gloom?
Hi @Stfuppercut, yes you did paint an incredibly bleak picture of layering, and the concern that if it didn't change it would be easy abused and rampantly destroying the vanilla feel (which would still be a shame).
Now that we can see that they are actively make changes and adjustments to layering to make it more functional and less exploitable, we don't have to run with the bleak picture you had nurtured.
Can you be optimistic about this change? Or is it all doom and gloom?
I will maintain a level head and outline potential issues that are glaringly obvious. I dont let my emotions sway me to extremes like other users here... This is how we get meaningful change. Plugging your ears, closing your eyes and humming loudly will not make layering workout. I'm glad that Blizzard also seem to be taking a level headed approach. My concern now is the timeline they have to make impactful changes... 60 days. I am not familiar with their development process, but 60 days until launch does not give them 60 days to make mass development changes. I would assume they have a few weeks remaining. I would be less interested in salvaging layering (which still has SEVERAL major issues) than I would be in seeing them use an alternate solution.
Hi @Stfuppercut, yes you did paint an incredibly bleak picture of layering, and the concern that if it didn't change it would be easy abused and rampantly destroying the vanilla feel (which would still be a shame).
Now that we can see that they are actively make changes and adjustments to layering to make it more functional and less exploitable, we don't have to run with the bleak picture you had nurtured.
Can you be optimistic about this change? Or is it all doom and gloom?
I will maintain a level head and outline potential issues that are glaringly obvious. I dont let my emotions sway me to extremes like other users here... This is how we get meaningful change. Plugging your ears, closing your eyes and humming loudly will not make layering workout. I'm glad that Blizzard also seem to be taking a level headed approach. My concern now is the timeline they have to make impactful changes... 60 days. I am not familiar with their development process, but 60 days until launch does not give them 60 days to make mass development changes. I would assume they have a few weeks remaining. I would be less interested in salvaging layering (which still has SEVERAL major issues) than I would be in seeing them use an alternate solution.
I wonder how much the retail code base helps them in tweaking the 'rules' of layering to help patch it up? If it was all from scratch I think you're right, they would be running out of time. But if the code is solid and based off retail sharding, it may be easier for them to change some variables, add some functions and implement good changes to layering in time for launch. Fingers crossed.
Looks like all of the big content creators are finally starting to realize that layering might be bad news?!?!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1oOIXi_59M
TLDW; Tips insinuates that he likely wouldnt have gone with layering but that is what Blizz will be going with. He doesn't really add any meaningful discussion to the topic and says that any option Blizz would have went with would be terrible.
No meaningful discussion except for the entire 2nd half of the video where he discusses the pros and cons of 3 separate course of action instead of layering? Those COA's came from the community btw. I know because I was watching his stream when he polled everyone for alternatives to layering and then discussed it with everyone for the next hour.
I would have chosen queues over anything else IF I really cared more about the negative effects of layering. The simplest solution to avoid a long server queue is to go to a less populated server provided Blizzard creates enough to house everyone who intend on playing. I never had issues during vanilla with having to wait any longer than 5-10 min to get on Mal'Ganis.
Everyone is going to have a different view on what they feel should be done because everyone has a different view of how they want their gameplay to be. None are particularly wrong. Laying for a couple weeks is not really a big deal in the grand scheme of things. If it sticks around permanently then that is where the problems will come. I would give a full report on how I think it should all be fixed but I'm certain no one has the time or interest to read it :smile:
I would give a full report on how I think it should all be fixed but I'm certain no one has the time or interest to read it :smile:
You've just triggered Stfuppercut's trap card!
Hahah. I agree with a lot of your post, and I too think at this point in time this close to launch there is not a lot more to be done other than try to patch the gaps of layering and hope its enough to get through the launch mess.
Can you be optimistic about this change? Or is it all doom and gloom?
Fingers crossed.
Honestly, I think the launch is going to be an unmitigated disaster, regardless of layering/sharing/dynamic respawns/huge server list. I don't think there is any good way to have a successful launch, without having some other ongoing issues created by the methodology they implement.
Some of us will remain optimistic and work towards positive changes through exploring the current state of layering and potential solutions. Others will have an emotional response to each piece of information we receive and explore their rollercoaster of emotions on the forums... Every... Day... While simultaneously projecting the critiques others have game them... You are the doom and gloom guy. Just roll with it. :lol:
I don't know what their version of layering is or what parallels it has to sharding but given how long they have had to work on layering and the current state of it in beta, I am not interested in them using their final few weeks on polishing this turd.
Can you be optimistic about this change? Or is it all doom and gloom?
Fingers crossed.
Honestly, I think the launch is going to be an unmitigated disaster, regardless of layering/sharing/dynamic respawns/huge server list. I don't think there is any good way to have a successful launch, without having some other ongoing issues created by the methodology they implement.
Some of us will remain optimistic and work towards positive changes through exploring the current state of layering and potential solutions. Others will have an emotional response to each piece of information we receive and explore their rollercoaster of emotions on the forums... Every... Day... While simultaneously projecting the critiques others have game them... You are the doom and gloom guy. Just roll with it. :lol:
I don't know what their version of layering is or what parallels it has to sharding but given how long they have had to work on layering and the current state of it in beta, I am not interested in them using their final few weeks on polishing this turd.
You've just used your last two replies bitching about me in this thread rather than providing meaningful feedback/discussions points. I'm not sure what else to say on the matter? I think it's pretty clear to everyone there is discussion to be had about the changes they are making currently in the beta, and that it is more positive than doing nothing.
Oh and I know you like to point the finger at others for being pessimistic/doom and gloom, but you may need to invest in a mirror dude. You ain't exactly a beacon of hope! :lol:
I am not interested in them using their final few weeks on polishing this turd.
Oh and I know you like to point the finger at others for being pessimistic/doom and gloom, but you may need to invest in a mirror dude. You ain't exactly a beacon of hope! :lol:
I am not interested in them using their final few weeks on polishing this turd.
Yes. They have had a very long time to work on the game. We have a few weeks left. Layering has not worked. It was one of the options they had to choose from. They have fleshed out the idea and it worked poorly. It is now time to use the beta for fixing the game and to take a new route while they still have time left. This is not being pessimistic... This is highlighting an actual issue that Blizz is dealing with and addressing it with a sense of urgency. They have a limited amount of time left. That is not being pessimistic... That is acknowledging how calendars work. If anything, this is optimistic... Despite the current state of layering, I am optimistic that they still have time to redirect the project and fix their poor decision to go with layering.