I was originally firmly against the token being brought to Classic. I was recently watching a video that mentioned some traces of the token being found in the game files for Classic. Admittedly this video is made by Alexensual and based on what we know this is a gigantic leap, but I think it stimulates conversation. So what if the token was brought to Classic? How would you feel?
I'll say that I am pro token (changed within the last 6 months seeing the impact of bots on private servers). After having played vanilla retail, playing retail up to and including BFA and playing on Blizzlike private, I cant see a compelling argument for no token. The way I see it, players will buy gold either way and there is no strong evidence to indicate that the token itself increase the quantity of gold being purchased and traded. The token disrupts the economy LESS than gold farmers. Lets use a hypothetical comparison...
Token: Player 1 plays the game and legitimately earns gold by positively contributing to the game. Player 1 purchases a token from Player 2 for Xg pieces. Player 1 has essentially opened trade and traded gold with another player without impacting the greater economy. This IS pay to win for player 2, but the greater economy has not been impacted to the same degree that it would be by a gold farmer.
Gold farmer: Runs 25 fishing bots simultaneously. Single-handedly creates a monopoly on fish and essentially removes fishing from the game. Players can participate in ANY other endeavor and purchase FAR more fish by buying them off the AH than they would be able to by going out and fishing. It is now impossible to justify fishing from an efficiency standpoint. This influx in available fish has had a large impact on PvP and increases the amount of consumes that are being used because they are so readily available which shifts the meta on a server. The sales of fish are creating black gold which is then being sold to players in large quantities. This gold is also being reinvested in rare items and spiking the value of desirable items on the server. Whats worse? There is less overhead this time around to running bots... Classic is set to be released with a combined sub to retail. This means that this issue will inevitably be worse.
I will say that they should mitigate this with various methods. I would like to see a limit placed on tokens being purchased by any account. Perhaps 1-2 per month.
Is the token pay to win? Yes. Is it the lesser of two evils? I would argue that it is. What is your argument against the token? Are you opposed based on the principal? Do you have evidence to suggest that the token increases the gold being purchased and thus making the game MORE pay to win? Look forward to hearing your thoughts.
Alex is typically a bit of a turd, but I think this makes a good discussion topic and I couldn't find anything related when searching.
Reference material for the mention of traces of the token being found in Classic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejYeUciA_UA
I'd take whatever Alex says with a grain of salt. He makes outlandish claims all the time and when one eventually lands he touts that he was, "right all along, but no one listened." If I said a bunch of crazy shit constantly eventually something I said would happen. That being said - I don't dislike Alex, I just don't agree with him on a vast majority of what he says.
I'm sure the store functionality was left in the mpqs, just like everything else. They will also more than likely use this interface for character transfers (something they've already stated). I have high doubts they'll bring a WoW token in during the first life cycle of classic. i.e. if they do release it, it will be after the game is dead. Is the token P2W? Absolutely. But will it release with the inception of Classic? If it does, not immediately, or even relatively soon after.
Why? Because they're currently banking off the notion that new players who return will purchase a sub, and continue to purchase a sub.
As for gold farming - gold farming has been heavily reduced since Blizzard decided to use obfuscation with their code with the launch of Legion. Rumor has it they hired a third party company to handle it, making bot studios like ShitBuddy (won't use the actual name) give up entirely.
I'd take whatever Alex says with a grain of salt. He makes outlandish claims all the time...
Absolutely. Hes a turd. I also believe they wouldn't launch with a token but I could definitely see it being released after a short time.
As for gold farming - gold farming has been heavily reduced since Blizzard decided to use obfuscation with their code with the launch of Legion. Rumor has it they hired a third party company to handle it, making bot studios like ShitBuddy (won't use the actual name) give up entirely.
Bots are still a massive issue in retail, despite the fact that their profit margins have been derailed by the token. You can find tons of evidence and videos of bots being readily accessible and used in 2019 with some quick searches. The reality is that Classic will incentivize botting without the token.
So Nenski what is your opinion on the token? Would you be opposed to it? Are you pro token?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4K0A4M1xmP4
Edit: several edits for context, apologies. Wanted to give video reference.
I'd take whatever Alex says with a grain of salt. He makes outlandish claims all the time...
Absolutely. Hes a turd. I also believe they wouldn't launch with a token but I could definitely see it being released after a short time.
As for gold farming - gold farming has been heavily reduced since Blizzard decided to use obfuscation with their code with the launch of Legion. Rumor has it they hired a third party company to handle it, making bot studios like ShitBuddy (won't use the actual name) give up entirely.
Bots are still a massive issue in retail, despite the fact that their profit margins have been derailed by the token. You can find tons of evidence and videos of bots being readily accessible and used in 2019 with some quick searches. The reality is that Classic will incentivize botting without the token.
So @Nenski what is your opinion on the token? Would you be opposed to it? Are you pro token?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4K0A4M1xmP4
Edit: several edits for context, apologies. Wanted to give video reference.
Botting and hacking is virtually impossible to prevent. It will always happen - forever. That being said, there's little to none publicly available bots for retail because of obfuscation. I wouldn't put an autohotkey program such as Fishmonger under the same category of other all-in-one bots which access memory.
I think any P2W in a game is complete and utter cancer and undermines the game design of said game. I would rather have everyone pay $15 a month than see WoW tokens on the AH. But like I stated before, if they do add them it won't be for a long time.
That being said, there's little to none publicly available bots for retail because of obfuscation. I wouldn't put an autohotkey program such as Fishmonger under the same category of other all-in-one bots which access memory.
The result is the same though isn't it? A quick google search gets you a bot (any bot, not just fishmonger) and you are impacting the economy. This will happen. There is no evidence to suggest that having the token increases or decreases the amount of gold being bought/traded between players. Fishmonger is an interesting case, and I chose to use this as a talking point because its actually free. You can get access to this bot for 1 month without paying anything. Pair that low entry fee with a game that has no base cost and this is a recipe for disaster.
I think any P2W in a game is complete and utter cancer and undermines the game design of said game. I would rather have everyone pay $15 a month than see WoW tokens on the AH. But like I stated before, if they do add them it won't be for a long time.
I agree. So your argument is more based on principal? You are opposed to the token as it is pay to win, even though it may create a healthier economy overall?
Edit: another interesting talking piece here would be bans. What happens when you get banned in Classic? Does that affect your live account too? Are these connected, or is it the same as other IP's? For example, if you get banned in Overwatch, you dont get banned in WoW. This could also create an issue as people with BFA accounts could bot in Classic without fear of losing their primary account. With Classic being inclusive, this could actually add to the issue.
WOW tokens shouldn't be in classic because they would increase the total amount of gold bought, would lead to inflation, and weren't in vanilla.
WOW tokens would increase the total amount of gold bought because unlike gold farmers the WOW token is easy buy and sell, is blizzard sanctioned, and isn't frowned upon by the community. WOW tokens are easy to buy, you can get them with just a few clicks by going to the in-game store and purchasing them with the credit card that is already hooked up with you Bnet account. They are also incredibly easy to sell because they have there own tab at the auction house. To make matters worse WOW tokens are blizzard sanctioned gold buying, meaning that you don't get banned for buying and selling WOW tokens but you do get banned for buying gold from a gold farmer. On top of this, buying gold from a gold farmer is frowned upon by the community but buying gold through the WOW token most likely wouldn't be. The ease of access, lack of chance of getting banned, and shamelessness on behalf of players undoubtedly lead to an increase of gold sold.
If the WOW token was added to Classic it would lead to inflation because players would farm more raw gold then usual in order to afford their subscription fee. This increase of raw gold being farmed would cause inflation over time as long as WOW tokens were in Classic. This inflation would make everything that is bought and sold between players more expensive and make the WOW token more worthwhile to buy so more people would buy it and this would lead to inflation getting even worse and it would snowball on itself until the sever got to a hyper inflated state.
Lastly the addition of WOW tokens would be a change to classic that could get in the way of the faithful recreation of the game that we all want.
As far as I am aware gold farmers still operate in spite of tokens existing, so I don't see the advantage of advocating in favor of tokens.
That being said, since tokens don't add gold to the economy, they aren't exactly a deal breaker for me either. I simply would prefer not to have them as their existence would only increase the number of people engaging in P2W behavior.
That being said, there's little to none publicly available bots for retail because of obfuscation. I wouldn't put an autohotkey program such as Fishmonger under the same category of other all-in-one bots which access memory.
The result is the same though isn't it? A quick google search gets you a bot (any bot, not just fishmonger) and you are impacting the economy. This will happen. There is no evidence to suggest that having the token increases or decreases the amount of gold being bought/traded between players. Fishmonger is an interesting case, and I chose to use this as a talking point because its actually free. You can get access to this bot for 1 month without paying anything. Pair that low entry fee with a game that has no base cost and this is a recipe for disaster.
I think any P2W in a game is complete and utter cancer and undermines the game design of said game. I would rather have everyone pay $15 a month than see WoW tokens on the AH. But like I stated before, if they do add them it won't be for a long time.
I agree. So your argument is more based on principal? You are opposed to the token as it is pay to win, even though it may create a healthier economy overall?
Bots impact an economy yes, but comparable to how many bots functioned on live servers comparatively from just 5 years ago, to today is a drastic change, and I mean drastic. What quickly available bots are you referencing? I checked for public bots and all of them are no longer providing for retail WoW (which would put Classic in the same boat). If you're referencing a private WoW bot, good luck. Most offered are scams, or built upon other project's code and will either cost you more than it's worth, or scam you out of money. You can read discussions on why many of these botting companies quit offering their bot on their forums (again, I won't link them here).
Listen, if you give the option to players to legally obtain gold, which will give them an advantage over other players, they're going to buy it. This is how predatory marketing works. They create sophisticated marketing systems that manipulate consumers into purchasing gold which is turned into upgrades. Buying upgrades makes you more powerful - thus reinforcing a consumers purchasing habits. This method is used in more games than I care to talk about.
While Blizzard will never admit it, the reason they offered a WoW token was to alleviate player bans from illegally obtained gold. The threat of a suspension or permanent closure deters a majority of players from purchasing gold. Once Blizzard opened the flood gates to allow any player to purchase gold, you gain the illegal gold purchasers and on top of that you also add the non-illegal (legit) players purchasing gold. So did this increase purchasing WoW tokens for gold? Undoubtedly. Currently, I will admit the amount of gold purchased is probably at it's all time low. Gold has been devaluing itself since Cataclysm, and the necessity for it is very low comparable to older expansions.
If you want to create a "healthier economy" there are better methods than creating a WoW token gold dump that won't affect the economy as much.
WOW tokens shouldn't be in classic because they would increase the total amount of gold bought, would lead to inflation, and weren't in vanilla.
WOW tokens would increase the total amount of gold bought because unlike gold farmers the WOW token is easy buy and sell, is blizzard sanctioned, and isn't frowned upon by the community.
Source? I hear this sentiment a lot but is there any evidence that this is true? I'm not being intentionally combative, I am genuinely curious. It sounds like the people opposed to the token are echoing this same idea. Tokens increase gold being bought and makes the game p2w... How do we know this for certain?
WOW tokens shouldn't be in classic because they would increase the total amount of gold bought, would lead to inflation, and weren't in vanilla.
WOW tokens would increase the total amount of gold bought because unlike gold farmers the WOW token is easy buy and sell, is blizzard sanctioned, and isn't frowned upon by the community.
Source? I hear this sentiment a lot but is there any evidence that this is true? I'm not being intentionally combative, I am genuinely curious. It sounds like the people opposed to the token are echoing this same idea. Tokens increase gold being bought and makes the game p2w... How do we know this for certain?
Blizzard would never release this information, but through marketing methodology it's implied this is the case. Check my post above.
Source? I hear this sentiment a lot but is there any evidence that this is true?
I don't think anyone but blizzard truly knows how much the wow token impacted how much gold is bought and sold, but the WOW token leaded to inflation. It was added in WOD and at the end of the month it was added $20 got you 25K gold and during legion on average $20 got you 250K
Also here is a source:
https://wowtokenprices.com/extended-history
Blizzard would never release this information, but through marketing methodology it's implied this is the case. Check my post above.
Having played on private, I'm inclined to disagree. Bots and gold are readily available and being promoted and advertised ingame. You will be flooded with whispers all day. This is hardly an underground market that has some sort of mystery or barrier to entry. Players will want gold. Gold will be advertised. Gold will be available for purchase to players. There will be a demand and thus a supply will be created to meet that demand. Gold will be sold or bought with or without the token. The only compelling argument I could see in opposition to the token would be some sort of evidence that the token increases the quantity of gold being sold. As you said, this is likely unavailable and thus I am inclined to think there is no strong argument against the token that can be supported with evidence.
I don't think anyone but blizzard truly knows how much the wow token impacted how much gold is bought and sold, but the WOW token leaded to inflation. It was added in WOD and at the end of the month it was added $20 got you 25K gold and during legion on average $20 got you 250K
Also here is a source:
https://wowtokenprices.com/extended-history
Having played each and every expansion, I noticed a significant drop off of gold sales after the token. Though this is anecdotal, it makes sense. The market established a value for the token and removed the repercussions of buying black gold. Blizzard simply made a more convenient and safe method for users to trade gold by hosting the sale themselves. If there is no token, availability will drive would-be buyers to gold sellers. While it may dissuade some buyers, many will still purchase gold like they did in vanilla and like they continue to do on private.
Blizzard would never release this information, but through marketing methodology it's implied this is the case. Check my post above.
Having played on private, I'm inclined to disagree. Bots and gold are readily available and being promoted and advertised ingame. You will be flooded with whispers all day. This is hardly an underground market that has some sort of mystery or barrier to entry. Players will want gold. Gold will be advertised. Gold will be available for purchase to players. There will be a demand and thus a supply will be created to meet that demand. Gold will be sold or bought with or without the token. The only compelling argument I could see in opposition to the token would be some sort of evidence that the token increases the quantity of gold being sold. As you said, this is likely unavailable and thus I am inclined to think there is no strong argument against the token that can be supported with evidence.
Keyword: private server. Blizzard's anti-cheat is magnitudes more effective than any private server. If you can find a working public BfA bot that accesses memory I'd be shocked. Gold will always be advertised, just like botters will always exist. The amount compared to a private server will be drastically different. Is this enough of a reason to implement WoW tokens? No.
I dont like introducing the P2W element into the game. Classic has always rewarded the dedicated, and wow token will reward the ones with money to spend. I would prefer tokens stay out, and gold buying continue to be a ban-able offense. Token makes it easier, and eliminates the risk of buying gold.
Yes, there will be bots and gold buying, but it will be a higher risk due to potentially getting banned. And when they make the bans, the remove the ill gotten gains out of the econ.
With the token, there is no penalty for me buying by gear with IRL $$$, those who can and wish to, will buy their way to the top rather than earn it.