Keyword: private server. Blizzard's anti-cheat is magnitudes more effective than any private server. If you can find a working public BfA bot that accesses memory I'd be shocked. Gold will always be advertised, just like botters will always exist. The amount compared to a private server will be drastically different. Is this enough of a reason to implement WoW tokens? No.
As can be seen by the videos linked previously, bots are still in full operation in retail. With no overhead to purchasing a Classic account and demand for bots, the development of better software is a surefire outcome.
"If you can find a working public BfA bot that accesses memory I'd be shocked." Why? I linked a bot that invalidates fishing which was my initial argument... You can find videos of bots herbing in BFA as well. The outcome is the same.
"The amount compared to a private server will be drastically different". Why? Why do private servers have so many bots? I would argue that there is no overhead and there is high demand. Your argument is that the anti cheat systems Blizzard has will counter bots? Bots can work in BFA. Bots ARE working in BFA. If you can bot, and there is a demand and the overhead is reduced, botting is a guarantee. To say otherwise is a bit naive.
Keyword: private server. Blizzard's anti-cheat is magnitudes more effective than any private server. If you can find a working public BfA bot that accesses memory I'd be shocked. Gold will always be advertised, just like botters will always exist. The amount compared to a private server will be drastically different. Is this enough of a reason to implement WoW tokens? No.
As can be seen by the videos linked previously, bots are still in full operation in retail. With no overhead to purchasing a Classic account and demand for bots, the development of better software is a surefire outcome.
"If you can find a working public BfA bot that accesses memory I'd be shocked." Why? I linked a bot that invalidates fishing which was my initial argument... You can find videos of bots herbing in BFA as well. The outcome is the same.
"The amount compared to a private server will be drastically different". Why? Why do private servers have so many bots? I would argue that there is no overhead and there is high demand. Your argument is that the anti cheat systems Blizzard has will counter bots? Bots can work in BFA. Bots ARE working in BFA. If you can bot, and there is a demand and the overhead is reduced, botting is a guarantee. To say otherwise is a bit naive.
This will be my last reply...
I've stated numerous times that 100% bot and hack prevention is impossible. Botters will exist - forever. However, like I stated before, the amount of bots will be drastically less than what you would see on a private server. The bots you are seeing currently in BFA (very few) are either private or autohotkey bots. They're not readily available to the mass public, meaning far less bots. Blizzard expunged almost all of the publicly available bots for Legion - BfA, and have continued to do so today through obfuscation and reverse engineering publicly available bots. Regardless of if it's an autohotkey bot (Fishmonger) or a coordinate bot, you'll be banned quickly. If you think otherwise, then you need to try it yourself and see how long you'll last - protip: not long. You must also take into consideration that not only is Blizzard's anti-cheat catching botters and hackers, you now also have non-sharding areas where players can see everyone. No longer will a bot be able to hide on a dead cluster and farm until a player shows up, and simply switch out. This means there is now two extremely strong methods of catching botters.
Will botting affect the economy? Yes, but at the level you're making it out to be, it still doesn't warrant the inception of WoW tokens in order to combat botting.
As for private servers, the reason they have so many bots is for two reasons (there's more but I simply don't have the time to go over all of them), one because of the lack of sophisticated anti-cheat and funding. Private servers don't have entire 15 year veteran teams dedicated to hacking and bot prevention. And two, because accounts are free.
Out of all the MMOs ever made, Blizzard has the most sophisticated anti-cheat systems on the market (and no, I'm not tooting Blizzard's horn). They've had to because they've had the most users, financial stability, and etc.
Botters will always exist. At no point did I ever say they didn't, or that Blizzard would prevent all of them. With the release of Classic, publicly available bots will exist, and then quickly fade. You can literally look up all of the previously big bot competitors and see that they gave up. Botting will ALWAYS exist - forever, and as a byproduct, will affect the economy. I've given tons of great reasons why botting wouldn't damage the economy as much as WoW tokens, all of which are quite logically sound.
However, would botting on Classic cause more economic damage than WoW tokens?
No.
This will be my last reply...
I've stated numerous times that 100% bot and hack prevention is impossible. Botters will exist - forever.
Agree wholeheartedly, and that is the beauty of the token. It takes a massive chunk out of the botters while also enhancing the economy as no amount of anticheat will ever deal with botters. They are an inevitability.
However, like I stated before, the amount of bots will be drastically less than what you would see on a private server.
We disagree here.
They're not readily available to the mass public, meaning far less bots.
See fishmonger video above. Free. Easily accessed by anyone.
If you think otherwise, then you need to try it yourself and see how long you'll last - protip: not long.
The comment section on the fishmonger video disagrees with you. They are not being banned.
However, would botting on Classic cause more economic damage than WoW tokens?
No.
Its unfortunate that you've chosen to end the conversation there, I'd love to hear how you think a bot would have less impact on the economy than a token.
Nenski wrote: ↑
30 minutes ago
However, like I stated before, the amount of bots will be drastically less than what you would see on a private server.
We disagree here.
I'm with Nenski here, it would be drastically easier and risk free to create a bot for a shitty run MaNGOS pserver than a Blizzard run server utilising their latest security tech. Not only that, but on a pserver players are much more willing to risk paying botters for gold, because the risk of a ban is far less likely, and far less detrimental than having your bnet account banned. Not only that, but half (if not more) of the pservers are run by scumbags who collude with gold sellers, account sellers, item gifting for $$ etc. so their credibility in providing a bot free server is negligible. PServers are ultimately run for a quick profit, even though they will claim everywhere on their websites that it's all from the heart for the people, bullshit. F R E S H meme just plays into it, get the huge populations in there, get the competition and the thrill of the race back, get the bots/gold sellers/account sellers/R14 item 'gifting' and collect your dirty money and wait for the next F R E S H server launch.
I don't want tokens, I want Classic WoW. I want Blizzard to continue to work on their security tech to prevent as many bots as possible and be ruthless with the ban hammer/legal threats. There will always be bots, so focus on reducing the bulk of them so we can just play classic as true to the vanilla experience as possible.
I don't want tokens, I want Classic WoW. I want Blizzard to continue to work on their security tech to prevent as many bots as possible and be ruthless with the ban hammer/legal threats. There will always be bots, so focus on reducing the bulk of them so we can just play classic as true to the vanilla experience as possible.
Exactly WOW tokens would be an extreme overreaction that would fundamentally chance Classic WOW
I'm with @Nenski here, it would be drastically easier and risk free to create a bot for a shitty run MaNGOS pserver than a Blizzard run server utilising their latest security tech.
Right. But I linked a video of a bot being used in BFA. They exist. They work. Difficulty aside, they are available.
I don't want tokens, I want Classic WoW. I want Blizzard to continue to work on their security tech to prevent as many bots as possible and be ruthless with the ban hammer/legal threats. There will always be bots, so focus on reducing the bulk of them so we can just play classic as true to the vanilla experience as possible.
Thats a fair perception. I think this is the difference... We both accept that there will be bots and im okay with compromising on my own principals (selling the token) to alleviate most of the botting issue and promote a healthier economy. You guys would rather take a moral stance despite the fact that the token would likely be better for the health of the economy. Is that fair?
You guys would rather take a moral stance despite the fact that the token would likely be better for the health of the economy.
No, I just want Blizzard to focus on security and supplying Classic WoW experience, over providing a WoW Token as an easy out. Then you just have 2 camps competing against each other for who wants my credit card details. I just want to pay my subscription to play, knowing that Blizzard are doing everything they can to protect my playing experience that I am paying for.
No, I just want Blizzard to focus on security and supplying Classic WoW experience, over providing a WoW Token as an easy out.
This exactly it is an easy out. An easy solution to an inevitable problem. A problem that will be compounded by various contributing factors... Lower overhead... Inclusive sub... Modern generation of quick-fix gamers... The social perception of buying gold has be changed due to the token... Etc etc etc...
Then you just have 2 camps competing against each other for who wants my credit card details. I just want to pay my subscription to play, knowing that Blizzard are doing everything they can to protect my playing experience that I am paying for.
You and me both. But I think the easy out is the best method to avoid the inevitable outcome of gold sales. Despite the obvious drawbacks.
The #nochanges part of me will always have an issue with bringing WoW Token into Classic. And I tend to agree with previous posters that this will create insane inflation, and since I historically have no interest in gold farming, this will have a pretty detrimental effect on my playtime, as all services and auction house prices will be seriously inflated. Bots and gold buying are an underground blackmarket affair that would be closely scrutinised by Blizzard, and people will likely avoid buying from sketchy websites. WoW Token will be used by a vast majority of players and it will likely lead to a LOT of gold farming from players, inflating gold prices. It will be widespread and acceptable. Buying from sketchy gold seller websites is frowned on by the community and will not be widespread. The minority will be using bots/buying from gold sellers. The majority will be buying/selling WoW tokens. This is the problem I see.
The #nochanges part of me will always have an issue with bringing WoW Token into Classic. And I tend to agree with previous posters that this will create insane inflation, and since I historically have no interest in gold farming, this will have a pretty detrimental effect on my playtime, as all services and auction house prices will be seriously inflated.
I understand the sentiment, I just feel that the obvious impacts of a botter will inherently cause more inflation than players playing legitimately, positively contributing to the game and then trading other players their clean gold for game time.
Bots and gold buying are an underground blackmarket affair that would be closely scrutinized by Blizzard, and people will likely avoid buying from sketchy websites.
With the modern age of microtransactions and the high demand for gold, I can see many premier/trusted gold buying sites like elitemmorpg resurfacing with Classic if there is no token. There is FAR too much money to be made. Hell, on private players are paying 20-40$ USD for 100g on the first week of launch. This obviously balances over time, but even late game pservers are selling 100g for 10$. The demand is there and people will pay for it and thus bots will be ran to satiate that demand.
WoW Token will be used by a vast majority of players and it will likely lead to a LOT of gold farming from players, inflating gold prices. It will be widespread and acceptable. Buying from sketchy gold seller websites is frowned on by the community and will not be widespread. The minority will be using bots/buying from gold sellers. The majority will be buying/selling WoW tokens. This is the problem I see.
Where is the source on this though? How do we know that the token increases the amount of gold being purchased?
What's interesting about this to me is the wow tokens weren't introduced until pretty recently. There was botting for sure in Vanilla, BC, and wrath but it by no means completely destroyed the economy from what I remember.
Maybe I wasn't in the know enough but I don't see why it would be different now than it was then.
What's interesting about this to me is the wow tokens weren't introduced until pretty recently. There was botting for sure in Vanilla, BC, and wrath but it by no means completely destroyed the economy from what I remember.
Maybe I wasn't in the know enough but I don't see why it would be different now than it was then.
Quite the opposite actually. Playing on high population servers that were notorious for PvP, the presence of bots and inflation was all too obvious. Where there was a demand for gold, there were bots. The most obvious answer here would be that you simply dont realize the inflation if you are silo'd to a specific server, this just becomes your reality. "Oh yea, essence of fire are just 35g. They always have been"... Meanwhile on the low pop server with very few bots due to low demand, essence of fire are 5-10g.
The way I see it, players will buy gold either way and there is no strong evidence to indicate that the token itself increase the quantity of gold being purchased and traded.
...
What is your argument against the token?
Very simple. I tried BFA on a new account (with no heirlooms). After realising that the leveling zones are dead and the leveling is a drag, I just wanted to check the end-game. I didn't want to use the one lvl110 boost I had (nor buy an another boost), so I bought one wow-token and sold it for 140k gold, allowing me to buy all max slot bags, all heirlooms, and more.
This immediately robbed me of any pleasure I could have had for upgrading items after playing for 30 minutes, and I logged off.
The difference is that if there was no wow token, I would in no way go to a shady 3rd party gold selling website to put (a) my credit card and (b) my battlenet account (which I've had for ages) at risk. The wow token was (a) convenient (b) legal. Buying from a shady 3rd person is not.
This isn't to say that noone will buy gold in classic because I know people do / did. I'm just saying that far less people will be willing to risk it because it is inconvenient and illegal.
The way I see it, players will buy gold either way and there is no strong evidence to indicate that the token itself increase the quantity of gold being purchased and traded.
...
What is your argument against the token?
Very simple. I tried BFA on a new account (with no heirlooms). After realising that the leveling zones are dead and the leveling is a drag, I just wanted to check the end-game. I didn't want to use the one lvl110 boost I had (nor buy an another boost), so I bought one wow-token and sold it for 140k gold, allowing me to buy all max slot bags, all heirlooms, and more.
Well, I hope your self control increases before Classic, because you will have the opportunity to buy gold from gold sellers. If all it takes is the option, you will have the option to buy gold in Classic. The 3rd party sites will be far from shady and will have glowing user reviews. Check out some of the private server sites. They aren't shady at all (some are, but others are pretty decent). I obviously wont advertise any here, but where there is big money to be made, competent business people will commercialize the sale of gold and offer premier services. With the value of gold selling, they stand to make a lot of money from building a name and a reputation. You can be assured that this will be the case.
The way I see it, players will buy gold either way and there is no strong evidence to indicate that the token itself increase the quantity of gold being purchased and traded.
...
What is your argument against the token?
Very simple. I tried BFA on a new account (with no heirlooms). After realising that the leveling zones are dead and the leveling is a drag, I just wanted to check the end-game. I didn't want to use the one lvl110 boost I had (nor buy an another boost), so I bought one wow-token and sold it for 140k gold, allowing me to buy all max slot bags, all heirlooms, and more.
Well, I hope your self control increases before Classic, because you will have the opportunity to buy gold from gold sellers. If all it takes is the option, you will have the option to buy gold in Classic. The 3rd party sites will be far from shady and will have glowing user reviews. Check out some of the private server sites. They aren't shady at all (some are, but others are pretty decent). I obviously wont advertise any here, but where there is big money to be made, competent business people will commercialize the sale of gold and offer premier services. With the value of gold selling, they stand to make a lot of money from building a name and a reputation. You can be assured that this will be the case.
It sounds like you just quoted the part from my post that supports your ideology the best, whereas I've clearly stated
The difference is that if there was no wow token, I would in no way go to a shady 3rd party gold selling website to put (a) my credit card and (b) my battlenet account (which I've had for ages) at risk. The wow token was (a) convenient (b) legal. Buying from a shady 3rd person is not.
This isn't to say that noone will buy gold in classic because I know people do / did. I'm just saying that far less people will be willing to risk it because it is inconvenient and illegal.
I'm not arguing against "competent business people will commercialize the sale of gold and offer premier services". There will be gold sellers. The difference is your "average joe" (in this case, me) will not be going out of their way to search / ask around for (i) which gold selling sites are trustable - which ties back to my original argument that it is inconvenient, and (ii) put their battlenet account at risk.
Also you are comparing private servers selling gold vs. selling gold on official Classic servers. I'm sure the ways for Blizzard to catch gold buyers has improved drastically (I have no proof for or against this, but it just seems logical).
As a final note, as others have also stated, I think adding the wow-token to Classic servers will do more damage than good - not economy wise but for the general health of the game. The major selling point for Classic is to show that old school gaming (grindy, no MTX) is still what many players yearn for. By adding the wow-token (a sanctioned way of buying gold) to Classic, you are making the game pay to win officially, going against the values that Classic/Vanilla represents/represented.
I feel like this is not a "is buying gold via blizzard or 3rd party better or worse for players and/or economy" issue (maybe you are right, maybe having wow-token IS better for the game economy on the long run), but a rather "will including the wow-token have an adverse effect on how Classic is represented and perceived?" issue and the answer to this question would be a resounding YES.