This debate honestly reminds me of prohibition. We all know how that goes...
You could apply that to a lot retail features I guess. LFG next? LFR? Where do we stop? Haha. I agree that it will happen, but that doesn't mean everyone will agree with it.
You could apply that to a lot retail features I guess. LFG next? LFR? Where do we stop? Haha. I agree that it will happen, but that doesn't mean everyone will agree with it.
Naw, those aren't even remotely similar. Gold will be sold. The token or bots/gold sellers. Choose one. Sharding wont happen unless Blizzard implements it. LFG doesn't happen without Blizzard allowing it to happen. Completely different... Honestly a weak attempt at a counter argument.
Stfuppercut PvP Ranking Bots will happen, map exploit bots will happen - Will Blizzard provide tokens for those too? Because they will sure as shit exist in the black market.
You don't get to decide what kind of counter argument someone can make on a public forum dude, it is what it is. If you don't think it's worthy don't respond?
Naw, those aren't even remotely similar. Gold will be sold. The token or bots/gold sellers. Choose one.
I'm a bit late to this awesome thread but just wanted to opine on this. I just don't like legitimising the purchase of gold with real money.
Whilst all the arguments for out-competing bots and destroying the black market etc. stand strong and make a lot of sense, you're still making it easy, encouraging even, people to purchase gold that doesn't already exist inside the game. Click the big old wow token logo, hand over your credit card and you're done - pay 2 win.
For people to get gold like that through a bot or farmer, sure it'd still be possible but there's also the fear of being banned from the game, or scammed out of your money which stopped a lot of players from getting involved in stuff like that in the first place, bringing the number of participants down significantly.
Most people here on this forum anyway seem to fall into the 26-30 age category - tell me honestly if you're in this demographic and you are really willing to spend insane hours on the game to be able to play enough to afford a token rather than forking out just 15 bucks at the end of the month to play?
...you're still making it easy, encouraging even, people to purchase gold that doesn't already exist inside the game. Click the big old wow token logo, hand over your credit card and you're done - pay 2 win.
The gold does exist in the game. That is the difference. A bot creates black gold. New gold that wouldn't exist. A token takes gold that was LEGITIMATELY earned by a player and already existed, and allows him to trade it to another player in exchange for game time. No new gold is created and thus the token is better for the economy. Much. MUCH better for the economy.
Most people here on this forum anyway seem to fall into the 26-30 age category - tell me honestly if you're in this demographic and you are really willing to spend insane hours on the game to be able to play enough to afford a token rather than forking out just 15 bucks at the end of the month to play?
I am in this demographic and to be clear I don't want the token... I believe the economy will need the token. The token is less disruptive than the alternative. In an ideal world, we woudlnt need either but this isn't an ideal world. I also would not use the token, as I have not on retail. However, the positive impacts of the token in retail are indisputable.
edit: incomplete sentence
I'm 32 and might actually make use of the token for the convenience of an Epic Mount, if given the chance.
I would most certainly not buy gold from an illegitimate seller.
Also I just thought of this:
Imagine a scenario where buying Tokens with illegitimate gold is cheaper than a WoW subscription :lol:
...you're still making it easy, encouraging even, people to purchase gold that doesn't already exist inside the game. Click the big old wow token logo, hand over your credit card and you're done - pay 2 win.
The gold does exist in the game. That is the difference. A bot creates black gold. New gold that wouldn't exist. A token takes gold that was LEGITIMATELY earned by a player and already existed, and allows him to trade it to another player in exchange for game time. No new gold is created and thus the token is better for the economy. Much. MUCH better for the economy.
Okay that’s understood - so it makes my point there moot.
Still not in the spirit of classic IMO - why should you be able to buy an epic mount with IRL money now when you couldn’t then? It takes the epicness out of it completely.
Although I understand a token might be beneficial to our in-game economy, I just don't think I would want it in a game. You'll see a lot of people dinging 60 and moments later they are all riding their epic mount. This takes away a looooot Classic WoW is all about. We put in hours and are rewarded with something we worked really hard for.
Still not in the spirit of classic IMO - why should you be able to buy an epic mount with IRL money now when you couldn’t then? It takes the epicness out of it completely.
Agreed. It gets a bit more challenging when you accept that bots/gold sellers will exist either way. If we accept that gold sales will ALWAYS be a part of the game, the game will always have a pay to win element. This is where I lean in favor of the token. Without the token, the game remains pay to win and gold farmers ruin the greater economy and the game. Their impact trickles into every aspect of the game and even shifts the PvP meta by making consumes more readily available due to market saturation. With the token, the game is pay to win but the greater economy is not affected.
The truth is, with or without the token you will never really know if the guy riding the epic mount purchased gold.
I wish that we had some sort of data on whether the token increases the quantity of gold traded between users. In my opinion, if we could prove that the token increased the amount of gold being traded, there would be a strong case in opposition of the token. Without that, the token just seems to be the better option for the health of a server. While 3rd party sites are a deterrent for some users, they actually incentivize other users by being more negotiable, trading in a variety of goods like accounts and boosts and offering a higher value for gold - $ (pending current rates/ how fresh the server is).
One of the biggest issues gold farmers had to contend with during retail vanilla was not the anti cheat software, rather the overhead of running bots. A gold farmers profit margins were VERY small. Why? They could typically only run 1-2 copies of the game on their computer. They had the cost of the game AND the sub fee. The cost of the bot. They had to run their bots on MANY servers, and remember server caps were only 3.5-4.5k during retail vanilla. With layering spiking servers up in population farmers wont need to spend as much time and money creating a gold bank on numerous servers. Instead they will be able to accommodate a larger player base on fewer servers. Let alone the implications of being able to shift your bots to various phases and further abuse layering. What will the overhead be like in Classic? No base cost to the game. Sub fee. Free bot. Computers that can run as many copies of the game as the farmer needs. Less accounts needed due to fewer servers (presumably based on higher player potential on each individual server). Now lets consider the players who will be returning to Classic...
"Most people here on this forum anyway seem to fall into the 26-30 age category".
Do you think that demographic will be MORE or LESS inclined to buy gold as busy adults with careers than they were as broke children with nothing but time? What about the tourists that come from retail? What about the generation of gamers that are used to micro transactions? How about when we consider that the social ramifications of cheating, aren't associated to gold buying because the token already exists in retail and buying gold IS a part of the game, and has been for some time. When we look at the ease of access to setting up a bot, the lower overhead and the potential for demand, gold selling could become a major issue. An issue that could be solved with the token.
I HATE the idea that we need a token. I hate the idea that other users would flock to a game designed for its challenge, a game that appeals to users who desire a challenge and that those same users would buy gold to reduce the difficulty of the game. But they will. A lot of them will. This market is huge.
I've actually been really interested in this topic for the past week or so and have been reading a lot of old articles. Its pretty crazy when you start to think about ALL the money being made as a result of no token and ALL the facets of gold selling.
"At its height, gold farms in China comprised a nearly $1 billion cottage industry. As many as 100,000 workers were employed full-time in these virtual mines, and many of them pulled 12-hour shifts (as does Jeremy, by the way). Many employees are earning only about 10 cents on the dollar for gold gained. "They rack up gold really fast," says Jeremy. "And because it's all virtual, there's no quality issues associated with it."
"Jeremy thinks he has only a few years left in his job, and here's the big reason: The games finally gave in and just let players buy the gold directly. In a limited capacity, anyway -- if you're a player looking to buy your way to better gear in WOW, you can buy a $20 token that can then be traded in an in-game auction house for gold. The purchaser of the token can't redeem it for cash -- they can use it only toward free months of their game subscription (to prevent farming). Jeremy says the decision caused a panic among the gold farming community. And although the demand for black market gold still exists, Jeremy has seen his income fall, despite putting more hours in this year than last."
This is why the anti cheat system is redundant. They will run bots. If they cant (they will be able to but lets pretend), they will simply farm. Whichever way you slice it, these guys are going to come back in force, and due to various factors that will influence demand, we may see more demand for gold than we ever had before.
References:
https://www.cracked.com/personal-experiences-2228-im-paid-to-play-mmorpgs-its-nightmare-5-realities.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/17/magazine/17lootfarmers-t.html
edit: the game was always pay to win. The token just acknowledges it.
The problem is, in my opinion, that far more people would be willing to buy a token than buy from a gold farmer. Between the ease and security of buying a token compared to buying from a sketchy gold farmer, more people would definitely buy a token. People who probably would not have ever bought from a gold farmer might consider buying a token. Now, we have people buying tokens left and right (presumably for the gold value) which creates inflation. Now, technically the token itself doesn't create inflation, the players grinding / farming gold in order to buy them does. Still though, the token leads to inflation this way. Gold farming is undoubtedly a pain to deal with and creates its own issues, but I think tokens actually do more damage to the game economy because they normalize obsessive gold farming in order to get next month's sub for "free", and entice people to buy them that normally wouldn't ever consider buying from some shady gold farmer.
If we accept that gold sales will ALWAYS be a part of the game, the game will always have a pay to win element. This is where I lean in favor of the token. Without the token, the game remains pay to win and gold farmers ruin the greater economy and the game.
I do accept that gold sales will always be a part of the game, agreed - that this will always be an aspect that can't be avoided. However, I think that you're equating the two as if they would be used to the same levels - it's like you're comparing the lesser of two evils, when really black market trading would constitute a very small number of players when compared to the full integration of legitimate RMT (real money trading).
Wherever there is a legitimate means of bringing real money into the game (ie the token), surely this will be a more popular option than to seek out black market instead. Classic with tokens makes it very accessible to do this - illegitimate trades would still of course exist but there is no way in hell I will accept a prediction that this would be just as widely used as tokens would be!
The truth is, with or without the token you will never really know if the guy riding the epic mount purchased gold.
Of course not, but were a token to exist the chances of him having bought that with $ and not with gold would be monumentally higher than they would be the other way around.
One of the biggest issues gold farmers had to contend with during retail vanilla was not the anti cheat software, rather the overhead of running bots. A gold farmers profit margins were VERY small. Why? They could typically only run 1-2 copies of the game on their computer. They had the cost of the game AND the sub fee. The cost of the bot. They had to run their bots on MANY servers, and remember server caps were only 3.5-4.5k during retail vanilla. With layering spiking servers up in population farmers wont need to spend as much time and money creating a gold bank on numerous servers. Instead they will be able to accommodate a larger player base on fewer servers. Let alone the implications of being able to shift your bots to various phases and further abuse layering. What will the overhead be like in Classic? No base cost to the game. Sub fee. Free bot. Computers that can run as many copies of the game as the farmer needs. Less accounts needed due to fewer servers (presumably based on higher player potential on each individual server).
Lots of interesting insights here but I think one thing you've yet to address is how much better games have gotten at finding bots. Network security, analysis and abuse detection is far more sophisticated now than it was in 2005.
Classic is running on a modern client and modern cheat detection was stressed even as far back as Blizzcon 2018:
Additional improvements will include modern anti-cheat/botting detection, customer service and Battle.net integration, and similar conveniences that do not affect the core gameplay experience.
Dev watercooler, 15th June 2018
The smartest bots will make it through of course, but I don't think this is enough to justify black market trades being on par with legit trades in terms of popularity. It's still a very niche area, it's still going to be used by a small minority, of the many botters that attempt to farm the game many won't break the security, and of that minority actually purchasing black coin many will get caught and banned. Bringing a token in to fix this, IMO, is a crude 'fight fire with fire' strategy that solves botting problems by pushing them out of the market but also simultaneously diluting individual achievement in the game. Why not just focus more on pushing bots out of the game and turning a blind eye to the insignificant trading that does happen? Surely that is a far less harmful solution?
Do you think that demographic will be MORE or LESS inclined to buy gold as busy adults with careers than they were as broke children with nothing but time?
I think that demographic have access to more disposable income, so yes, more inclined. Remember when we were broke-ass kids tokens didn't exist so that option wasn't even there to begin with. As for tourists I don't really know what you're asking about - how will the fact that they are just transient players have an impact on how willing they are to pay money for gold? The very word tourist insinuates that they'll come for a trip then leave again, so regardless of what they may or may not do it won't have a lasting impact on the game.
How about when we consider that the social ramifications of cheating, aren't associated to gold buying because the token already exists in retail and buying gold IS a part of the game, and has been for some time.
In retail that is the perception, yeah, but not in Classic. There was very much a stigma attached to purchasing in-game currency with real money back then. Why should it be different for Classic? Whenever GMs on pservers were found to be shifting items and services for real money fees there was always an outcry, and this was in recent times too.
When we look at the ease of access to setting up a bot, the lower overhead and the potential for demand, gold selling could become a major issue.
Explain to me how you would, with ease of access, set up an efficient and undetectable gold farming bot for World of Warcraft: Classic.
This is why the anti cheat system is redundant. They will run bots. If they cant (they will be able to but lets pretend), they will simply farm. Whichever way you slice it, these guys are going to come back in force, and due to various factors that will influence demand, we may see more demand for gold than we ever had before.
Produced by bots or produced by farmers, the actual transaction of gold still has to be made between the two parties for the trade to be completed. How many of these transactions will actually be completed successfully after security? It could be a handful or it could be quite significant - it doesn't matter - it will never, ever be as many as tokens would allow.
On a slightly different note, I think that tokens encourage a weird playstyle which I have seen time and time again in different games. I played EvE Online for four years, hardcore. In EvE you can, like with tokens in WoW, make enough in-game currency to be able to afford a month's subscription.
What ended up happening for most folks I met, especially new players, was that they ended up missing out on the game's fun entirely because they became so obsessed with playing it for free, and spent their entire month's subscription farming to get their sub. They didn't participate in fights, or take new space, or join corporations, or learn new ships, or become spies and saboteurs, and all the myriad of incredible things possible in EvE because they were too busy making in-game currency. What kind of enjoyment is that? Just to be able to play for free? It's literally a tenner for a monthly sub - why not just pay that and actually enjoy the game?
Having an option like a token available to players opens up to people the illusion that they can play for 'free', when really they're expending weeks of their life in exchange instead.
Still though, the token leads to inflation this way. Gold farming is undoubtedly a pain to deal with and creates its own issues, but I think tokens actually do more damage to the game economy because they normalize obsessive gold farming in order to get next month's sub for "free", and entice people to buy them that normally wouldn't ever consider buying from some shady gold farmer.
I've seen this argument a few times in this thread. If I wanted to use gold to buy a token for game time, I wouldn't do it on the classic server. Gold farming/the auction house economy would be too fresh, gold would be worth too much. I would just use a high level character on a retail server and get my gold there.
Pretty sure lots of people are in this same boat, and if that's the case Classic's economy wouldn't be affected as much because people would catch on quickly that it's not the quickest option for getting tokens.
- Bots exist. They will exist. Blizzards anti hack software is redundant as I linked a working bot.
So the hundreds of thousands of botters they successfully removed by shutting down public bot companies like Shitbuddy is redundant?
You're right. They should just remove anti-cheat and revert all the work they did, that way giant publicly available bots can come back in full force, like in Cataclysm and WoD! Brilliant! You're literally saying that there's no difference between 2% of the community botting, and 25% of the community botting. I'm absolutely puzzled by this stance.
- Using the token doesn't guarantee that more gold will be traded.
It absolutely does. You're offering a way to purchase gold legally in-game, rather than only to a smaller sized market who is willing to lose their account over it i.e. buying from gold sellers.
The token is less impactful on the economy than bots/gold sellers.
How do you know? You don't, no one does. If anything, it just makes things worse because bots/gold sellers will still exist regardless of if there's a token. So if anything, you're just adding more poison to a cup of poison.
Using the token acknowledges that the game is pay to win. While you can buy gold either way and the game will inevitably have a pay to win element, adopting the token accepts moral defeat and sacrifices our principals for the health and quality of the game.
There's a difference between cheating P2W, and game design P2W. One is frowned upon by the developers and community, while the other is not. Regardless of morals - being allowed to skip the tedious grind that is vanilla defeats the purpose of the game.
Not to come off as an ass hole, I'm anything but - but your stance is very uninformed and heavily opinion based. As someone who has worked in the botting community, and private WoW server community as a developer and GM, anti-cheat is a life saver and shouldn't be looked down upon. The life cycle of many botters are typically short, and anti-cheat is a constant arms race against bot developers. Blizzard can update their game client, and force a public or private bot to be down for days. Once a bot developer has fixed whatever problem may have arose (offsets, function locations, injection method, etc) Blizzard shits out another patch just a day later. Does botting and gold selling affect the economy? Yes, but Blizzard removes, punishes, and prevents a large amount of this artificial inflation.
All adding a WoW token really does is lower the price of gold from private gold sellers (because there's less illegal buyers). It doesn't actually prevent them from farming materials and ruining the economy. Therefore, the WoW token does nothing for us except offer a legal way to purchase gold, which defeats the purpose of the game, and helps ruin the economy quicker.
Because remember, I could just buy cheap illegal gold from a gold seller and buy a WoW token ;).
The problem is, in my opinion, that far more people would be willing to buy a token than buy from a gold farmer. Between the ease and security of buying a token compared to buying from a sketchy gold farmer, more people would definitely buy a token. People who probably would not have ever bought from a gold farmer might consider buying a token.
Yea, this has been echo'd throughout the discussion but we have no evidence to suggest this is the case. The token does not necessarily increase the gold being traded. The numbers we have on gold that was sold before the token, indicates that this market was HUGE. With an 8 million player count, there were over 100,000 chinese players farming virtual currencies. This doesn't account for all the bots. This doesn't account for all the players using personal bots. Gold sales were ALWAYS prevalent.
First of all, welcome back Nenski , I knew you'd come around... =)
So the hundreds of thousands of botters they successfully removed by shutting down public bot companies like Shitbuddy is redundant?
Gold sales were derailed by the token. Not the anti cheat software. The software is great. Anti cheat software will always increase in performance at the same rate that malicious users create new tech to break the ToS. This is a never ending cycle. We have bots that currently work in retail. Lets say they banned ALL the bots. You still have farmers. You still have 100,000 Chinese users disrupting the economy. The token answers these issues.
You're right. They should just remove anti-cheat and revert all the work they did, that way giant publicly available bots can come back in full force, like in Cataclysm and WoD! Brilliant! You're literally saying that there's no difference between 2% of the community botting, and 25% of the community botting. I'm absolutely puzzled by this stance.
Naw. I didn't say that. Anti cheat is important, but it isn't as effective as the token is to deter botting. The token disrupted mass-commercialization of gold selling. Bots are primarily for personal use at this point. This is likely for two primary reasons in retail, the token destroyed profit margins on gold AND gold isnt valuable in retail. Again though, stop being so fixated on the bots silly... Gold farmers can also justify working for pennies per hour and farming the game as well. These players aren't raiding, they dont communicate with others, they mass purchase products on the server and cause incredible inflation. They are worse than a regular player who is actively participating on the server, selling his gold for money.
It absolutely does. You're offering a way to purchase gold legally in-game, rather than only to a smaller sized market who is willing to lose their account over it i.e. buying from gold sellers.
The market for illegal gold was ANYTHING but small. You have no figures to suggest that the token increases gold being traded. I wish you did as this is the crux of your argument, but ya don't.
How do you know? You don't, no one does. If anything, it just makes things worse because bots/gold sellers will still exist regardless of if there's a token. So if anything, you're just adding more poison to a cup of poison.
We do. The token doesn't disrupt the economy in the same way that gold selling does. The token takes legitimate gold and trades it between users. It has a VERY minimal impact on the economy. The token is the EXACT same as one player opening trade with another and giving him gold. The token is better for the economy than a botter or a gold seller who are massively impacting inflation on the server. Much better.
There's a difference between cheating P2W, and game design P2W. One is frowned upon by the developers and community, while the other is not. Regardless of morals - being allowed to skip the tedious grind that is vanilla defeats the purpose of the game.
Is there? The result is the same. Perhaps you get to protect your moral high ground, but it wont change the outcome.
All adding a WoW token really does is lower the price of gold from private gold sellers (because there's less illegal buyers). It doesn't actually prevent them from farming materials and ruining the economy. Therefore, the WoW token does nothing for us except offer a legal way to purchase gold, which defeats the purpose of the game, and helps ruin the economy quicker.
Because remember, I could just buy cheap illegal gold from a gold seller and buy a WoW token ;).
You don't understand how the ingame economy works, nor how the token functions. I'll get you to go back a few pages and read Rinkusan post on basic economy to get you caught up to speed.
This will be my last reply...
I'm so glad you decided to stop by Nenski , when you told me you were done with this thread I got pretty disappointed!