I do accept that gold sales will always be a part of the game, agreed - that this will always be an aspect that can't be avoided. However, I think that you're equating the two as if they would be used to the same levels - it's like you're comparing the lesser of two evils, when really black market trading would constitute a very small number of players when compared to the full integration of legitimate RMT (real money trading).
We don't know this. We DO know the black market for gold was MASSIVE. Absolutely massive! I previously equated this debate to prohibition, and for good reason. The repercussions of an act work as a deterrent but often aren't enough to dissuade the average buyer from participating in the illegal act. I could link all sorts of stats on alcohol and cannabis here but the short and sweet of it is, deterrents work to a certain degree but aren't a long term answer. When you consider that gold selling was a 1 billion dollar industry and that the Chinese were making pennies per gold sale, you need to stop and understand what sort of quantity of gold we are talking about... Massive gold was being moved during retail vanilla and BC. Massive. Since then, the demand has likely increased.
Wherever there is a legitimate means of bringing real money into the game (ie the token), surely this will be a more popular option than to seek out black market instead. Classic with tokens makes it very accessible to do this - illegitimate trades would still of course exist but there is no way in hell I will accept a prediction that this would be just as widely used as tokens would be!
This is the strength of the token. The token disrupts gold sellers who are more impactful to the game.
Of course not, but were a token to exist the chances of him having bought that with $ and not with gold would be monumentally higher than they would be the other way around.
See the statistics on gold farmers in China. MASSIVE gold was being moved. There is no indication that the token decreases the quantity of gold being traded, it simply removes the majority of the farmers and bots from the equation.
Lots of interesting insights here but I think one thing you've yet to address is how much better games have gotten at finding bots. Network security, analysis and abuse detection is far more sophisticated now than it was in 2005.
Sure. As are the bots. I previously linked a working bot at the start of the thread. A bot that has functioned for two expansions straight with no updates and has not been broken. A lot of people are getting hung up on the bot stuff. Lets say that Blizzard will ban ALL BOTS! (They wont.) Chinese gold farmers still exist and still cause the same issues farming gold by hand to a lesser extent. They are still disrupting the economy more than the token.
Why not just focus more on pushing bots out of the game and turning a blind eye to the insignificant trading that does happen? Surely that is a far less harmful solution?
This is essentially the "solution" people opposed to the token are offering. We know the anti cheat tech isn't sufficient, because bots still work. We know Chinese gold farmers will destroy the economy with or without botting. We know that the gold farming industry was absolutely INSANELY huge during vanilla, BC, yet those who opposed the token would advocate closing our eyes, putting our fingers in our ears and humming while we play despite the ramifications for accepting servers flooded with bots and farmers. I don't consider that a solution. Ignorance is not a solution.
I think that demographic have access to more disposable income, so yes, more inclined. Remember when we were broke-ass kids tokens didn't exist so that option wasn't even there to begin with. As for tourists I don't really know what you're asking about - how will the fact that they are just transient players have an impact on how willing they are to pay money for gold? The very word tourist insinuates that they'll come for a trip then leave again, so regardless of what they may or may not do it won't have a lasting impact on the game.
Players who are accustomed to buying tokens and purchasing gold have become accommodated with a pay 2 win feature that is built into the game. For those arguing that gold sales would increase with a token by normalizing the behavior and making it more available, surely you must think that players who come from retail and are accustomed to buying tokens would be more inclined to purchase gold? Especially players who are less invested in the project. I do believe that most tourists will come and go, but I also think the games having a shared sub will stimulate some cross-pollination and that many of these users may be inclined to stick around. Regardless, we will be seeing a lot of the psychology from Retail get transferred over to Classic because we have that shared sub.
Explain to me how you would, with ease of access, set up an efficient and undetectable gold farming bot for World of Warcraft: Classic.
I will open google. I will type in "Bot 2019 Classic". I will find a link and download the bot. I will begin botting. Similar to how I found that fishmonger bot. I went to youtube. I typed in my search phrase. I was greeted with a lovely man who had created a bot and was willing to hand out codes for free pending a quick email. I imagine that bots like fishmonger will likely work in Classic, but if they don't, the dev's will make a patch to ensure they do function.
This is why the anti cheat system is redundant. They will run bots. If they cant (they will be able to but lets pretend), they will simply farm. Whichever way you slice it, these guys are going to come back in force, and due to various factors that will influence demand, we may see more demand for gold than we ever had before.
Produced by bots or produced by farmers, the actual transaction of gold still has to be made between the two parties for the trade to be completed. How many of these transactions will actually be completed successfully after security? It could be a handful or it could be quite significant - it doesn't matter - it will never, ever be as many as tokens would allow.
I would LOVE to be onboard with this sentiment, we just have nothing to use as a metric to prove that this is reality. There is no indication that the token increases gold being traded between users.
Having an option like a token available to players opens up to people the illusion that they can play for 'free', when really they're expending weeks of their life in exchange instead.
As far as the economy is concerned, that is good. As far as player retention is concerned, that is good. I cant speak for the health of the individual, but then I will probably do the rank grind in Classic and that wont be very healthy either.
No WoW tokens. This is just Blizzard's way of not paying to have people check reports of botters to see if they're legitimate, or investigate shady dealings, same as how we're not getting the same level of GM support as back in the old days.
And it is distinctly not vanilla in flavor.
I don't think it should be made easier to purchase gold. Period.
No WoW tokens. This is just Blizzard's way of not paying to have people check reports of botters to see if they're legitimate, or investigate shady dealings, same as how we're not getting the same level of GM support as back in the old days.
And it is distinctly not vanilla in flavor.
If you already know you're getting less support, wouldn't that be a great reason FOR the token?
I don't think it should be made easier to purchase gold. Period.
Enter credit card info to Blizz. Enter it to 3rd party site. Seems like a pretty similar barrier to purchasing gold to me. This is probably why the market for gold during retail vanilla was massive. 100,000 employed gold farmers. Some of them operating numerous bots. What percentile of the playerbase was buying gold with 8 million subs? Good lord, it must have been a SHITLOAD.
The problem is, in my opinion, that far more people would be willing to buy a token than buy from a gold farmer. Between the ease and security of buying a token compared to buying from a sketchy gold farmer, more people would definitely buy a token. People who probably would not have ever bought from a gold farmer might consider buying a token.
Yea, this has been echo'd throughout the discussion but we have no evidence to suggest this is the case. The token does not necessarily increase the gold being traded. The numbers we have on gold that was sold before the token, indicates that this market was HUGE. With an 8 million player count, there were over 100,000 chinese players farming virtual currencies. This doesn't account for all the bots. This doesn't account for all the players using personal bots. Gold sales were ALWAYS prevalent.
I don't think Centurions argument is based on evidence so to speak - it's more just an observation of the average guy weighing up the pros and cons of going to a gold seller against the rules. Considering how much time is invested into a vanilla character, would you be willing to risk having your account banned to engage in illicit RMT? I know I wouldn't.
On the other hand, seeing as you're citing figures quite generously to justify your argument for the WoW token's success it wouldn't be unfair to ask for your sources on these.
We don't know this. We DO know the black market for gold was MASSIVE. Absolutely massive!
I thought we were comparing the predicted number of token trades with 3rd party trading - in which case we should be measuring everything relative to each other rather than hyperbolising?
We both seem to be on the same page that real money shouldn't have anything to do with Classic WoW but we're disagreeing about what would contribute more to this.
To put it clearly, I argue that were the two modes of trade available in-game, that trades completed through a legitimate source would outnumber those made illegitimately. My reasons for believing this are based on behaviour which I'm sure anyone reading can sympathise with - which is that when a player is faced with the dilemma of having to take a risk to gain gold with real money through a 3rd party, most wouldn't do it for fear of retribution.
The repercussions of an act work as a deterrent but often aren't enough to dissuade the average buyer from participating in the illegal act.
So you agree with me then - deterrents do indeed bring the total number of customers down, which brings the demand down, which in turn brings the impact of synthetic gold down. Of those who decide to buy shady gold, some are removed from the game remember, which means they're also a non-factor. The token on the other hand actively encourages people to bring real money into the world.
Wherever there is a legitimate means of bringing real money into the game (ie the token), surely this will be a more popular option than to seek out black market instead. Classic with tokens makes it very accessible to do this - illegitimate trades would still of course exist but there is no way in hell I will accept a prediction that this would be just as widely used as tokens would be!
This is the strength of the token. The token disrupts gold sellers who are more impactful to the game.
I am well aware that competition from Blizzard will drive down prices of other parties - you're not responding to my argument with this statement though, which is not within the scope of the point I am trying to make.
Of course not, but were a token to exist the chances of him having bought that with $ and not with gold would be monumentally higher than they would be the other way around.
See the statistics on gold farmers in China. MASSIVE gold was being moved. There is no indication that the token decreases the quantity of gold being traded, it simply removes the majority of the farmers and bots from the equation.
No, in your own words, it disrupts competing sellers - it does not eliminate them completely.
Lots of interesting insights here but I think one thing you've yet to address is how much better games have gotten at finding bots. Network security, analysis and abuse detection is far more sophisticated now than it was in 2005.
Sure. As are the bots. I previously linked a working bot at the start of the thread. A bot that has functioned for two expansions straight with no updates and has not been broken.
This bot is just an automated clicker for a very unsophisticated in-game task. It uses inertia on the mouse movement to emulate human movement - which it doesn't do very well either. The cursor always arrives into the 'search area' from the same position, moves on the same trajectory, clicks the bobber at the same interval of time, and then makes the same movement SW-E-NE after clicking.
This kind of interaction is very easily picked up by a machine and to be honest I'm very surprised by your claims that it has been able to stay relevant for two expansions without an update.
Bear in mind also that right click banning is in effect for Classic - vigilant players can spot a machine player intuitively and will, I am sure, make full use of this to bring to the attention of GMs any botting activity not already caught by blizzard's own automated guards.
Explain to me how you would, with ease of access, set up an efficient and undetectable gold farming bot for World of Warcraft: Classic.
I will open google. I will type in "Bot 2019 Classic". I will find a link and download the bot. I will begin botting. Similar to how I found that fishmonger bot. I went to youtube. I typed in my search phrase. I was greeted with a lovely man who had created a bot and was willing to hand out codes for free pending a quick email. I imagine that bots like fishmonger will likely work in Classic, but if they don't, the dev's will make a patch to ensure they do function.
A lot of people are getting hung up on the bot stuff.
Well, I can't speak for other people - but I'm personally still hung up on the 'bot stuff' because I think you're really off the mark about actual botting with regards to how easy you think it is to make gold efficiently with them when applied to more complex in-game mechanics.
Linking an auto clicker bot for fishing isn't exactly the pinnacle of sophistication and fish aren't going to turn the WoW economy on its head.
So, I'm still challenging you to show me how you would, with ease of access (and that doesn't, by the way, involve potentially compromising your account details by emailing someone for a code), set up an efficient and undetectable gold farming bot for World of Warcraft: Classic.
Lets say that Blizzard will ban ALL BOTS! (They wont.) Chinese gold farmers still exist and still cause the same issues farming gold by hand to a lesser extent. They are still disrupting the economy more than the token.
Ah! Now you're talking about a very different point which I wasn't ever purporting in my posts so far - about the economy.
I'm not an economist and to be honest I don't really understand things like inflation and all that jazz - hence why I haven't actually mentioned anything about economics or anything of the sort in any of my posts so far. I don't like to talk about things I don't know about.
Please refer to my original argument which is that more real money - which we've already established is bad - will enter the game through the token. I just don't want to see people buying success in WoW becoming the normal thing to do, which is what your solution will result in, as you have said in reference to retail already (see your quote below):
I think that demographic have access to more disposable income, so yes, more inclined. Remember when we were broke-ass kids tokens didn't exist so that option wasn't even there to begin with. As for tourists I don't really know what you're asking about - how will the fact that they are just transient players have an impact on how willing they are to pay money for gold? The very word tourist insinuates that they'll come for a trip then leave again, so regardless of what they may or may not do it won't have a lasting impact on the game.
Players who are accustomed to buying tokens and purchasing gold have become accommodated with a pay 2 win feature that is built into the game.
For those arguing that gold sales would increase with a token by normalizing the behavior and making it more available, surely you must think that players who come from retail and are accustomed to buying tokens would be more inclined to purchase gold?
Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. By bringing a retail feature like tokens into WoW Classic you would be enabling people to do that.
I do believe that most tourists will come and go, but I also think the games having a shared sub will stimulate some cross-pollination and that many of these users may be inclined to stick around. Regardless, we will be seeing a lot of the psychology from Retail get transferred over to Classic because we have that shared sub.
You've sort of shot yourself in the foot with this - you agree then that tourists will come and go, like I said, and therefore you must also agree that the most incentivised token-gold buying persons, according to you, will no longer be participating in the game, which means less of a long-term impact.
Will we be seeing a lot of the psychology of retail get transferred over to Classic? Yeah for sure. There will be a lot of people coming over, and some to stay too. Have you considered however the reason that these people might indeed stay is because they do not want retail features such as real money purchases? Should we be encouraging features that weren't in 1.12 to also be transferred across to Classic?
Produced by bots or produced by farmers, the actual transaction of gold still has to be made between the two parties for the trade to be completed. How many of these transactions will actually be completed successfully after security? It could be a handful or it could be quite significant - it doesn't matter - it will never, ever be as many as tokens would allow.
I would LOVE to be onboard with this sentiment, we just have nothing to use as a metric to prove that this is reality. There is no indication that the token increases gold being traded between users.
You've mentioned metrics, indications and data a lot in your posts - please just use some good old fashioned common sense here my man:
Will the average guy risk having his hard-earned characters deleted to buy 'farmed' gold? No, he won't. If 100% risk free and legitimate (and encouraged/promoted) tokens were available for him to pump real funds into the game, would he do that? Yes, he will.
I'm sorry but no matter how many numbers you throw at this argument (and don't forget the sources please since you have already used them), you're ignoring some very basic considerations like this.
Considering how much time is invested into a vanilla character, would you be willing to risk having your account banned to engage in illicit RMT? I know I wouldn't.
There was a massive market for gold back in 2004-2007. So whether you or I would engage, is irrelevant. Gold farming was a 1 billion dollar cottage industry. 100,000 employees servicing 8 million users in 2007. A very high portion of the userbase was buying gold. Very. Very. Very high. I'm not sure what percentage of these employees were working exclusively within warcraft? I will find those sources later when I have time.
On the other hand, seeing as you're citing figures quite generously to justify your argument for the WoW token's success it wouldn't be unfair to ask for your sources on these.
Linked references above. Those references have several sub-links and related articles as well if you are interested.
We don't know this. We DO know the black market for gold was MASSIVE. Absolutely massive!
I thought we were comparing the predicted number of token trades with 3rd party trading - in which case we should be measuring everything relative to each other rather than hyperbolising?
We don't have the numbers on the token. We have some general figures for gold sales during retail vanilla/BC. These figures are valuable for context because it shows how prevalent gold farming was. The game was always pay to win. Where we get into my opinion, is when I am predicting the demand for gold and how it will increase during Classic. This is my own conjecture. I think the demand will be higher. It very well could be less. I think it will be higher though.
We both seem to be on the same page that real money shouldn't have anything to do with Classic WoW but we're disagreeing about what would contribute more to this.
Yes. I just accept that it always has been a part of the game, and that it always will be. The token dramitcally mitigates the affect of gold buying on the greater economy.
So you agree with me then - deterrents do indeed bring the total number of customers down, which brings the demand down, which in turn brings the impact of synthetic gold down. Of those who decide to buy shady gold, some are removed from the game remember, which means they're also a non-factor. The token on the other hand actively encourages people to bring real money into the world.
No. Deterrents do exactly as they are meant to do, they deter would-be users from buying gold. This CAN work, but is not a long term solution. This is a preliminary response to a negative behavior; deter the act. This is the same for any sort of prohibition. This will deter some users from buying gold initially. The decriminalization of an act is not correlated with an increase in overall use in most cases. Prohibiting alcohol did not decrease use. Legalizing cannabis does not increase use. People who are advocating that buying from 3rd party sites drastically reduces gold buying are lacking two things: Evidence that the token increases gold being traded AND they fail to acknowledge the GIGANTIC amount of gold sellers during vanilla/BC that were participating in a 1 billion dollar industry. An insane quantity of gold was ALWAYS being traded and sold. Always. The game WAS/IS/AND WILL BE pay to win in some regard.
No, in your own words, it disrupts competing sellers - it does not eliminate them completely.
Correct. It disrupts the sellers. The player can still pay to win. Though his actions are only affecting him and not the greater economy. He would have that same epic mount with the farmers OR with the token, the difference is that the greater economy isn't suffering for his actions to the same extent.
This bot is just an automated clicker for a very unsophisticated in-game task. It uses inertia on the mouse movement to emulate human movement - which it doesn't do very well either. The cursor always arrives into the 'search area' from the same position, moves on the same trajectory, clicks the bobber at the same interval of time, and then makes the same movement SW-E-NE after clicking.
Yes. SUPER basic bot. I've had this same debate with about 5 other users at this point, but I'll recap. The outcome is the same. Regardless of how complicated and capable the bot is, or how simple and basic it is, the bot fishes for you endlessly and rapes the economy. The outcome is the same. Granted, when there is money to be made for developing new tech for a gigantic userbase in Classic, I'm sure we will see better technology for bots.
This kind of interaction is very easily picked up by a machine and to be honest I'm very surprised by your claims that it has been able to stay relevant for two expansions without an update.
Watch the video. Read the comments. Not my claims. The claims of the users. I have never botted. I have only been the victim of them.
Bear in mind also that right click banning is in effect for Classic - vigilant players can spot a machine player intuitively and will, I am sure, make full use of this to bring to the attention of GMs any botting activity not already caught by blizzard's own automated guards.
For any of us who understand the economy and the potential for what a bot can make, this wont be effective. The start up for a bot is lower that it has ever been and the profit margins are higher.
Well, I can't speak for other people - but I'm personally still hung up on the 'bot stuff' because I think you're really off the mark about actual botting with regards to how easy you think it is to make gold efficiently with them when applied to more complex in-game mechanics.
Linking an auto clicker bot for fishing isn't exactly the pinnacle of sophistication and fish aren't going to turn the WoW economy on its head.
So, I'm still challenging you to show me how you would, with ease of access (and that doesn't, by the way, involve potentially compromising your account details by emailing someone for a code), set up an efficient and undetectable gold farming bot for World of Warcraft: Classic.
It doesn't need to be sophisticated. This is the hurdle we cant seem to surpass with many users in this conversation. I'm not sure if you guys understand the impact of mass fishing. Bear in mind, fishing is one very small aspect of botting/gold selling etc... But its impact is fucking HUGE. We're talking mass inflation on the economy, we're talking MASS quantities of consumes at dirt cheap prices completely changing the meta of PvP, insane quantities of black gold being reinvested into the economy to control monopolies on valuable commodities, the list goes on and on... Is your argument that the fishing bot I linked isn't complicated enough to matter?... What? It fishes. Endlessly. The outcome is the same.
I just don't want to see people buying success in WoW becoming the normal thing to do...
It was always the normal thing to do. See how many farmers existed in retail vanilla/BC. See that the industry was a 1 billion dollar industry. The game has always been pay to win, whether you have participated in that or not.
I do believe that most tourists will come and go, but I also think the games having a shared sub will stimulate some cross-pollination and that many of these users may be inclined to stick around. Regardless, we will be seeing a lot of the psychology from Retail get transferred over to Classic because we have that shared sub.
You've sort of shot yourself in the foot with this - you agree then that tourists will come and go, like I said, and therefore you must also agree that the most incentivised token-gold buying persons, according to you, will no longer be participating in the game, which means less of a long-term impact.
No. I believe that at the very minimum, the demand for gold will be the same as it was in retail vanilla and BC, which appears to be massive based on what we know about the gold that was being sold at that time. At the very worst, a lot of tourists stay for a prolonged period of time and increase that demand. There is NOTHING to indicate that there will be LESS demand for gold. There are A LOT of factors that would indicate increased demand.
Will we be seeing a lot of the psychology of retail get transferred over to Classic? Yeah for sure. There will be a lot of people coming over, and some to stay too. Have you considered however the reason that these people might indeed stay is because they do not want retail features such as real money purchases? Should we be encouraging features that weren't in 1.12 to also be transferred across to Classic?
Yes, I have considered that. I have also played on private where people are buying insane quantities of gold despite the fact that they want to play vanilla. This is just the reality of the situation. People want to play, but people also want to win. Paying to win is the easiest way to get there, and so they will. With or without the token, as they always have. I am not a psychologist so I can't tell you why this phenomenon occurs.
Will the average guy risk having his hard-earned characters deleted to buy 'farmed' gold? No, he won't. If 100% risk free and legitimate (and encouraged/promoted) tokens were available for him to pump real funds into the game, would he do that? Yes, he will.
Yes he will. Which is why gold selling was a 1 billion dollar industry in vanilla/BC. Would I? No. Would you? No. Is the risk lower now than it was then? Yes. Less overhead. Less upfront cost to the game. This will only make it easier for buyers to make that decision.
I'm sorry but no matter how many numbers you throw at this argument (and don't forget the sources please since you have already used them), you're ignoring some very basic considerations like this.
Again, I linked references and quotes from previous articles throughout the thread. Please read my posts in full. I have linked video evidence of bots, sourced old articles and done the best I can to shed light on these topics. I have not been receiving sources in return.
I was in a bit of a rush and deleted my original post =(. I whipped this one up to continue the conversation, but will reread it later and address the other points that I may have missed.
No WoW tokens. This is just Blizzard's way of not paying to have people check reports of botters to see if they're legitimate, or investigate shady dealings, same as how we're not getting the same level of GM support as back in the old days.
And it is distinctly not vanilla in flavor.
If you already know you're getting less support, wouldn't that be a great reason FOR the token?
No, because once someone has a poor solution and you complain, they just point to their poor solution and claim that it's taken care of. Condoning gold buying isn't a real solution to gold buying. Free high level characters wasn't a real solution to power levelers either. Blizzard just got in on the action and the money.
Yes, I have considered that. I have also played on private where people are buying insane quantities of gold despite the fact that they want to play vanilla. This is just the reality of the situation. People want to play, but people also want to win.
A person in my old guild bought gold a while back on a private server. Got banned. Lost all the gear he'd been given and had to start over. Admitted he did it and apologized to everyone in the guild since we'd just given him a Nightfall. Never got his account back.
Did he win? I wouldn't say so, but if WoW token existed he'd never have been banned. It seems more like the advocacy of the WoW token is the advocacy that there should be no consequences for gold buyers, or not even a possibility of a consequence.
No, because once someone has a poor solution and you complain, they just point to their poor solution and claim that it's taken care of. Condoning gold buying isn't a real solution to gold buying. Free high level characters wasn't a real solution to power levelers either. Blizzard just got in on the action and the money.
Accepting that gold sales are inevitable and using the token to mitigate their effect, is a solution. A solution that has demonstrated effectiveness. Banning gold sellers/buyers has never worked. Ever.
A person in my old guild bought gold a while back on a private server. Got banned. Lost all the gear he'd been given and had to start over. Admitted he did it and apologized to everyone in the guild since we'd just given him a Nightfall. Never got his account back.
Did he win? I wouldn't say so, but if WoW token existed he'd never have been banned. It seems more like the advocacy of the WoW token is the advocacy that there should be no consequences for gold buyers, or not even a possibility of a consequence.
The deterrent of being banned did not dissuade him. His only regret was getting caught. In the process of buying that gold he hurt the economy massively. There is no indication that the token increases the amount of gold being traded. Did he win? No. But a lot of people buy gold. A lot of those do win. That doesnt really matter to you and I though, because we wont purchase gold either way. Without the token, we lose on every gold sale. With the token, we lose less.
Some more links for those interested.
Estimates for the amount of gold farmers during vanilla/early BC range between 100,000 and 500,000. These numbers do not account for bots which can drastically increase the amount of accounts operated by one individual farmer. It must also be noted that gold farming operations typically grind gold for multiple games simultaneously, so these numbers are likely not representative of farmers who were exclusively playing WoW.
https://www.mtv.com/video-clips/5eamj2/is-mining-virtual-gold-exploitative
https://www.cracked.com/personal-experiences-2228-im-paid-to-play-mmorpgs-its-nightmare-5-realities.html
"Another round of Blizzard bannings, quote:"In our continued efforts to combat cheating in World of Warcraft, more than 105,000 accounts were closed and over 12 million gold was removed from the game economies in Europe, Korea, and the US in the month of November." (Tobolds Blogspot, 2006)
The writer goes on to say "Excuse me for being cynical, but if 105,000 gold farmers together have only 12 million gold, then each gold farmer has less than 120 gold inventory on average. So either these guys are selling the gold faster than they can make it; or more likely Blizzard only banned the bot accounts, and not the distributor account that holds all the gold" (Tobolds Blogspot, 2006)
Selling gold faster than they could make it would be my guess. Most of the sites I have been looking at mention that farmers request a delivery expectation date. It sounds as if they were meeting work orders as they came in. These sellers were SO backed up with orders that they could not keep up with demand.
https://tobolds.blogspot.com/2006/12/blizzard-bans-105000-players-in.html
"Robin Chin is a gold farm boss. He demonstrates how his gold farmers make money - basically by staying in the same spot for an entire 12-hour shift, killing the same monster over and over again. Most play the world's top online game, the World of Warcraft"(NPR, 2007)
Bots or Chinese that farm endlessly. Either way, the gold will be generated. Where there is demand, there is market and someone will fulfill these orders!
Article mentions "Surveys show 20 percent of gamers admit to buying gold." Still working on finding original source... Will post if/when I can find it.
https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=10165824 (NPR)
Jared Psigoda is the self proclaimed king of the Chinese gold farmers. When asked about the general details of his job Jared outlines that he works with "tens of thousands of studios that farm gold... Hundreds of thousands of people working in this industry with active accounts"(Jared Psigoda, 2010) Consider how many gold farmers that is... Consider HOW much gold is being produced, bought and sold. Consider the demand... Consider how much HIGHER demand could be in Classic?...
When asked about the future of gold farming and if it can be sustained, Jared says "if the game developer sells the gold themselves, we will not be able to compete." Jared works as a broker. Brokers are the face of gold selling. These are the big players. These are the Americans that run the massive gold farming websites. These guys take the order and then contact their endless supply chain of gold producers to fulfill an order. Jared's job and the entire infrastructure of gold farming relies on brokerage sales. When Blizzard facilitates these sales with the token, they replace Jared and nullify the farmers.
"This market (selling virtual currencies) operates almost exclusively in one game. 80-90% of gold sales operate within World of Warcraft (Jared Psigoda - During Wrath of Lich King)"
Jared mentions that gold is primarily generated in 3 ways. Farmed, cleaned and botted. Cleaned gold refers to gold that is stolen. Players accounts are logged into, items are disenchanted and all of their items are stolen. The cleaned account is then used for gold advertisement spam. Cleaned gold will be less of a concern due to modern security features like the Blizzard Authenticator.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWvHcoqru7I
(Interview with Jared Psigoda, 2010)
I'd love to see some sources that indicate the token increases the amount of gold being traded. The game was always pay to win. This market was enormous. Just because you are emotionally opposed to the token, does not mean that it isn't the best answer to contest gold selling. Just because you hate the idea that people will buy gold, does not dismiss the fact that it will be bought and sold with or without the token. The token IS the lesser of two evils.
...The token dramitcally mitigates the affect of gold buying on the greater economy.
...the difference is that the greater economy isn't suffering for his actions to the same extent.
The outcome is the same. Regardless of how complicated and capable the bot is, or how simple and basic it is, the bot fishes for you endlessly and rapes the economy.
For any of us who understand the economy and the potential for what a bot can make, this wont be effective. The start up for a bot is lower that it has ever been and the profit margins are higher.
We're talking mass inflation on the economy, we're talking MASS quantities of consumes at dirt cheap prices completely changing the meta of PvP, insane quantities of black gold being reinvested into the economy to control monopolies on valuable commodities, the list goes on and on...
This is called 'attacking the straw man' - a form of argument and an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent.
I haven't presented an argument based on economics (said this already) - why are you responding to my points by referring to the economy in your conclusions? I can't really come back at you because all of the above are now posts that I can disregard almost completely - they're not actually responding to what I have contributed so far.
I have not been receiving sources in return.
Thanks for linking your sources to support the notion that gold farming existed in WoW, they seem sound.
If it's me you're referring to - you won't find figures that require a citing so I assume you're talking about someone else. I'm only providing conjecture based on what I think most average players will do.
So let's stop with the strawman responses about economics and inflation which I don't understand and never referred to originally. Here, I'll lay things out for you clearly:
1. We both agree that real money should not be involved in Classic.
2. WoW tokens encourage and enable people bring real money into Classic with no ramifications.
If you agree with number 1, how can you possibly justify number 2?
For me this is similar to EVE. You can buy game time or "token(plex)" to sell or give. The game is not better nor worse with it.
Token>>>bots and spammers everywhere. I would much rather have token than broken immersion every 10minutes. Real money will be in clasic one way or another, rather to have it blizzard way than botters way. Just my 2 cents.
Just because you are emotionally opposed to the token
I don't want otherwise game law-abiding people who wouldn't buy gold to begin buying gold once it is condoned.
The token IS the lesser of two evils.
And how is the token the lesser of the two evils? The way I see it MORE gold will be bought and sold with the token. Your point of view is that it's better that it's not synthetic, but what about the increased purchasing? Risk-free gold purchasing too, I might add.
Token>>>bots and spammers everywhere. I would much rather have token than broken immersion every 10minutes. Real money will be in clasic one way or another, rather to have it blizzard way than botters way. Just my 2 cents.
I never had the level of bots and spam in Vanilla. I never even had the Chinese try to talk to me except the one time I accidentally randomized my troll's name and it gave me something that all the gold farmers thought was Chinese like them. Even then, they didn't spam me, they just wanted to talk to me.
Just because private servers are a mess doesn't mean original vanilla was.
Just because private servers are a mess doesn't mean original vanilla was.
I think you've spotted a key issue, most players have tainted memories from their more recent pserver experiences. That's the way it comes across with a lot of the vocal minority at least. A lot of classic enthusiasts have played pservers (myself included) and if they had a particular negative experience there, they are assuming it will be mirrored in Classic WoW, which is definitely just hyperbole. People running shitty pservers for some shady cash != classic WoW run by Blizz.
No one knows exactly what the new meta will be for Classic, but it sure as shit won't be the garbage most pservers served up.